Raiders Defense

[jimkelly02]

2 hours ago, NYRaider said:

We should've kept Anthony Rush last year instead of signing Corey Liuget. 

 

Very true!  I do wonder how he’s turning out.  Was he a camp phenom and nothing more or has he showed he can play?

[jimkelly02]

On 8/21/2020 at 5:32 AM, Darbsk said:

Realistically, some positions will not live up to potential and DT could be one. We seem to be putting all our eggs in the Maliek Collins basket and as @jimkelly02 rightly says above we look incredibly thin at NT. Hurst and Collins from what I've seen don't have the leverage or anchor ability to play the run like Hankins, more relying on splash plays by penetrating and much more hit and miss. Ross looks like an end of roster/TC type player to me so its right to be a little concerned. Even if he can provide some ballast there is no contingency for Covid or injury which I find very cavalier.

It’s not just that we’re thin at DT in terms of talented players.  

It’s a two part issue.  The players we have are very specialized/“limited” too.  Hankins is a pure NT run stuffer with little pass rush.  Collins and Hurst are good pass rushers that are not stout versus the run.  Their very similar players even down to body type.

PJ Hall wasn’t a great talented.... he was ok.  But when we had him we had a versatile 3T DT that could be a run stuffer alongside Hankins at 1T.  He could also play 1T when Hankins came out or on passing downs.  We lost a “glue” player at DT.  For all his faults, Hall was very “active” and even if he didn’t win initially he would give pursuit.  when Collins and Hurst don’t win initially their out of the play completely.  

[jimkelly02]

2 hours ago, NYRaider said:

FWIW Tashan Reed of the Athletic said Nicolas Morrow and Jonathan Hankins are having good camps. But that Damarious Randall hasn't looked great. 

I wouldn’t be surprised to see Harris starting week 1.  I think most people would be slightly shocked to realize he started 14 games and played 87% of all defensive snaps last year.

[NYRaider]

On 8/21/2020 at 12:57 AM, jimkelly02 said:

but at DT we’re incredibly thin..... if Hankins ever got hurt we’d have Hurst and Collins to stuff the run.... i couldn’t imagine those two in short distance/goal line formations.  I don’t know why I’m the only one to talk about Daniel Ross being an incredibly poor 4th DT.  That’s a position that could play 300 snaps.  I don’t know why we are taking such chances.

I think one of the reasons we're content with our depth at DT is because they're planning to play Ferrell inside a lot more. Which also explains why we gave Nassib $7M/yr to be our third defensive end. According to reports he looks a lot bigger and stronger but still doesn't look like a twitchy guy that can consistently win off of the edge. 

[NYRaider]

4 minutes ago, jimkelly02 said:

I wouldn’t be surprised to see Harris starting week 1.  I think most people would be slightly shocked to realize he started 14 games and played 87% of all defensive snaps last year.

Harris is an okay player and decent depth but he's one of the reasons we had one of the worst secondaries in the league last season. Gunther's system is difficult to learn but I'm pretty confident that Randall will be the starter when the season starts. 

Edited August 23, 2020 by NYRaider

[jimkelly02]

32 minutes ago, NYRaider said:

Harris is an okay player and decent depth but he's one of the reasons we had one of the worst secondaries in the league last season. Gunther's system is difficult to learn but I'm pretty confident that Randall will be the starter when the season starts. 

I think we’re pretty much in agreement but saying it differently.  Harris is ideally a 3rd S because he has limitations.  FS is a hard position to learn in this scheme.  Which is why I said there’s a possibility that Harris starts week one.  Maybe I should have included “while Randall is phased in.  They could split reps initially.”  
I just meant that it might!!! not be a given that Randall starts week 1.  He could progress enough through TC... we’ll see.  I don’t think it’s a horrible thing is Harris starts early on.

[jimkelly02]

39 minutes ago, NYRaider said:

I think one of the reasons we're content with our depth at DT is because they're planning to play Ferrell inside a lot more. Which also explains why we gave Nassib $7M/yr to be our third defensive end. According to reports he looks a lot bigger and stronger but still doesn't look like a twitchy guy that can consistently win off of the edge. 

I’d actually like to see Nassib play some DT.  While Collins and Hurst are good pass rushers... they really lack length.... And Nassib is very tall with long arms.  I was so high on Jordan being resigned 1. Because of the cost being so low due to the new CBA’s veteran cap credit up- KC used it to resign Demarcus Robinson 2.  Jordan is very lengthy.  What he gives up in mass and strength he makes up for in length.

Nassib’s arm length and height will allow him to engage blockers effectively during DE-DT Stunts... freeing up the DE to make an inside rush.  It also gives him an advantage on backside pursuit and slants on run plays.

I’ve said before we really need more length at DT.  Nassib might be able on give us that.

Nassib’s length allows him to knock balls and restrict QBs throwing lanes and angles too.  That’s a very underrated talent.  Rushing Collins and Hurst means the QB has little worry of having a pass deflected.  If Nassib Is at 3T alongside Ferrell on the right side of the DLine.... those two can be a real force to bat down passes thrown their way to the LB level.

Collins and Hurst lack the “tackling zone” (that’s a word i invented), by which I mean they have limited range to make a tackle due to their small, stocky body and shorter arms. while Nassib has great “tackling range”.

I don’t think Nassib can be worth what he paid him purely as a DE, but if used as a DT he can be.  I still think 9.5M essentially guaranteed is far too much for ‘21 But that’s another story.

hopefully we can use Nassib at DE on “hybrid” formations.  Stand him up in the A-gap and blitz a LB.... get creative.  We did this with Key versus Chicago.

i don’t think we have the talent to run a conventional iDL but certainly can be effective if Guenther gets creative and schemes up ways to create favorable matchups.

[Darbsk]

17 hours ago, jimkelly02 said:

I’d actually like to see Nassib play some DT.  While Collins and Hurst are good pass rushers... they really lack length.... And Nassib is very tall with long arms.  I was so high on Jordan being resigned 1. Because of the cost being so low due to the new CBA’s veteran cap credit up- KC used it to resign Demarcus Robinson 2.  Jordan is very lengthy.  What he gives up in mass and strength he makes up for in length.

Nassib’s arm length and height will allow him to engage blockers effectively during DE-DT Stunts... freeing up the DE to make an inside rush.  It also gives him an advantage on backside pursuit and slants on run plays.

I’ve said before we really need more length at DT.  Nassib might be able on give us that.

Nassib’s length allows him to knock balls and restrict QBs throwing lanes and angles too.  That’s a very underrated talent.  Rushing Collins and Hurst means the QB has little worry of having a pass deflected.  If Nassib Is at 3T alongside Ferrell on the right side of the DLine.... those two can be a real force to bat down passes thrown their way to the LB level.

Collins and Hurst lack the “tackling zone” (that’s a word i invented), by which I mean they have limited range to make a tackle due to their small, stocky body and shorter arms. while Nassib has great “tackling range”.

I don’t think Nassib can be worth what he paid him purely as a DE, but if used as a DT he can be.  I still think 9.5M essentially guaranteed is far too much for ‘21 But that’s another story.

hopefully we can use Nassib at DE on “hybrid” formations.  Stand him up in the A-gap and blitz a LB.... get creative.  We did this with Key versus Chicago.

i don’t think we have the talent to run a conventional iDL but certainly can be effective if Guenther gets creative and schemes up ways to create favorable matchups.

The intriguing thing about Nassib for me is that he is so versatile, he's played 3-4 rush LB but also has the ability to play inside in a 4-3 with his length and leverage and as you say is a real terror at swatting balls and getting in throwing lanes. He's shown very good ability on stunts and can also be used as just a plain old base DE. Rewatching some games we used Key inside on occasion last year and he actually wasnt too shabby, Id prefer him to stay outside and use his bend but Nassib can certainly do a job there in the Dion Jordan role and make room for others. He's obviously a very different player from the shorter squat DTs mentioned, we shouldn't be surprised if he has quite a large role.

[jimkelly02]

4 hours ago, Darbsk said:

The intriguing thing about Nassib for me is that he is so versatile, he's played 3-4 rush LB but also has the ability to play inside in a 4-3 with his length and leverage and as you say is a real terror at swatting balls and getting in throwing lanes. He's shown very good ability on stunts and can also be used as just a plain old base DE. Rewatching some games we used Key inside on occasion last year and he actually wasnt too shabby, Id prefer him to stay outside and use his bend but Nassib can certainly do a job there in the Dion Jordan role and make room for others. He's obviously a very different player from the shorter squat DTs mentioned, we shouldn't be surprised if he has quite a large role.

Yeah... I’ve mentioned Key was used and actually pretty good rushing from the inside....against Chicago he got a sack that way... i believe, my memory could be off.

Key does have the bend that Nassib pretty much lacks.  Keys a slippery, wiry player and can actually make plays versus the run.  If he puts it together we’re in good shape at DE.  

I think we’ll see Ferrell, Nassib, and even Key playing DT this year.  To be honest I’d rather line up 1-2 of those guys inside and get creative standing them up and doing stunts than just sending Collins and Hurst in on 3rd down.

[Darbsk]

On 8/23/2020 at 8:37 PM, jimkelly02 said:

I wouldn’t be surprised to see Harris starting week 1.  I think most people would be slightly shocked to realize he started 14 games and played 87% of all defensive snaps last year.

Harris gets very little credit around here, not to say he's a star but he's a pretty solid player and I believe led us in interceptions last year. I too wouldnt be at all surprised to see him start the year above Randall as he familiarises himself. Thought he played pretty well last year but he did blow a few coverages and that gets remembered.

[Humble_Beast]

I think Harris is okay.. An average backup player, gets overhyped on this forum. Maybe because nobody ever gets an interception on the Raiders, so everyone got all excited when Harris picked off Rivers on Thursday Night...lol

[Darbsk]

45 minutes ago, Humble_Beast said:

I think Harris is okay.. An average backup player, gets overhyped on this forum. Maybe because nobody ever gets an interception on the Raiders, so everyone got all excited when Harris picked off Rivers on Thursday Night...lol

I'm not sure he's overhyped, never seen anyone call him a star or over look his weaknesses but he wasn't terrible when he played and had some really good moments. Maybe I'm in the minority but i think he's underrated around these parts and probably as good or better than Heath. 

[roi34]

Harris is better than average

spot starter.  and just like able

Edited August 25, 2020 by roi34

[jimkelly02]

I agree.... Harris is the typical “spot starter” or “replacement level starter”.... the guy you don’t WANT to be the starter week, as ideally you’ve upgraded from in in the offseason, but don’t mind if he has to start during the year.

id agree he’s underrated ever so slightly.  I can’t recall anyone ever bragging about him or saying he’s the answer at S.  If anything he’s the after thought Player who makes a big play and catches some props and goes back to the same status 2 weeks later.

[jimkelly02]

5 hours ago, roi34 said:

Harris is better than average

spot starter.  and just like able

I think he’s not over hyped as much as he is just really liked on a personal level.... he’s a great story... fans love that.  We know he isn’t amazing but still like him a lot.