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Raiders Defense


Rolni

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2 hours ago, NYRaider said:

I think that Kwit, Mullen, and Crosby were our best defensive players last season. 

And for a guy taken #4 overall, he should be the guy that eats doubles, and is disruptive off the edge that makes life easier for everyone else. 

hahah def agree with that. and those 3 would realistically be my choices as well. 
but, Crosby has major over pursuit and run game issues. 
Mullen had his off games. 
Kwit, when healthy was our best player IMO. but struggled with injuries but so did Cle. 

def not trying to say Cle was worth the overall pick, but i think if he had gone to say the Saints at 20 whatever they drafted that year, hed be making a name for himself as an all around player. 
problem is, when your entire D is bad, it is tough to look decent. 

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1 minute ago, MrOaktown_56 said:

Also to the defensive tackle point, Hankins is an above average nose tackle.

Hurst, Jefferson, and Irving have all shown flashes of good play. Thomas is a former top 5 pick playing out of position that needed a fresh start. None of these guys are gonna require huge resources. We didn't need to go crazy for a mediocre DT.

I still think we should draft a good one in the first 3 rounds, but it's not a DIRE need.

I'll keep pounding the table for Tyler Shelvin in round 3/4. He'll never be a great pass rusher but he's a huge body that's very good in run support. He's a guy that understands his role and embraces taking on double teams plus would be a cheap replacement for Hankins going forward. 

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3 minutes ago, BackinBlack said:

hahah def agree with that. and those 3 would realistically be my choices as well. 
but, Crosby has major over pursuit and run game issues. 
Mullen had his off games. 
Kwit, when healthy was our best player IMO. but struggled with injuries but so did Cle. 

Crosby saw a lot more double teams last season as he was our only consistent pass rusher. I think as he continues to add strength he'll improve as his run defender. 

Mullen certainly had some bad games but was solid overall. It's difficult to be a good CB when your DL is generating very little pressure. 

Kwit was awesome last season and I'm hoping he can stay healthy and continue to improve. 

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3 hours ago, NYRaider said:

A guy also doesn't have to have huge sack production to be a good player. Trey Flowers secured the bag and is viewed as one of the better edge players in the league and he has never had more than 7.5 sacks in a season. 

Similarly Carl Lawson just got paid and only had 5 or so sacks last season I think

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I would be a lot more optimistic about the defense if I felt better about that corner spot opposite Mullen. After Terrell went, I was really hoping Diggs was going to be the pick. Hindsight is 20/20, but even if Diggs played as little and as badly as Arnette last season, I would have been happier believing Diggs had the overhead to get better. I am not sure how much better Arnette is going to get. I feel like I have to give him the benefit of the doubt because of his injuries and no offseason--but this seems to be another Ferrell situation.

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1 hour ago, Rich7sena said:

I would be a lot more optimistic about the defense if I felt better about that corner spot opposite Mullen. After Terrell went, I was really hoping Diggs was going to be the pick. Hindsight is 20/20, but even if Diggs played as little and as badly as Arnette last season, I would have been happier believing Diggs had the overhead to get better. I am not sure how much better Arnette is going to get. I feel like I have to give him the benefit of the doubt because of his injuries and no offseason--but this seems to be another Ferrell situation.

Almost every rookie CB struggled last season. Jeff Ukodah was viewed as a can't miss prospect and his coverage grade was worse than Arnettes. 

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50 minutes ago, NYRaider said:

Almost every rookie CB struggled last season. Jeff Ukodah was viewed as a can't miss prospect and his coverage grade was worse than Arnettes. 

I already addressed that argument in my post. I don't see the upside in Arnette. He was supposed to be a plug-and-play corner prospect. Now, we're a year behind on the investment and he was already an older player. 

For the same reason I had Gary>Ferrell, I had Diggs>Arnette. I'm probably going to end up right on both.

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5 minutes ago, Rich7sena said:

I already addressed that argument in my post. I don't see the upside in Arnette. He was supposed to be a plug-and-play corner prospect. Now, we're a year behind on the investment and he was already an older player. 

For the same reason I had Gary>Ferrell, I had Diggs>Arnette. I'm probably going to end up right on both.

My whole thing about the age thing is that I think if he improves next year and turns out to be a bit with the defense, it doesn’t really matter. For example, Brandon browner was a 27 years old rookie. But when he balled out nobody cared. Arnette turns 25 in September. 

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14 minutes ago, Rich7sena said:

I already addressed that argument in my post. I don't see the upside in Arnette. He was supposed to be a plug-and-play corner prospect. Now, we're a year behind on the investment and he was already an older player. 

He was dealing with injuries throughout the season and we had the worst pass rush in the NFL. 

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15 minutes ago, Rich7sena said:

For the same reason I had Gary>Ferrell, I had Diggs>Arnette. I'm probably going to end up right on both.

Gary has 7 sacks in 2 seasons playing on one of the better defenses in the league, while Ferrell has 6.5 sacks playing on one of the worst. 

Diggs played better than Arnette as a rookie but he also played better than Okudah. So should we write Okudah off as a bust after one season as well? 

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2 hours ago, NYRaider said:

Gary has 7 sacks in 2 seasons playing on one of the better defenses in the league, while Ferrell has 6.5 sacks playing on one of the worst. 

Diggs played better than Arnette as a rookie but he also played better than Okudah. So should we write Okudah off as a bust after one season as well? 

You're looking right past my point. My point is both Ferrell and Arnette were allegedly drafted for their ability to play at a competent level right away. Arnette did not and Ferrell arguably did not. Conversely, other players who were viewed as being "developmental" either outperformed or played just as well (bad) as they did.

You regularly argue your points looking at numbers favorable to your side without considering the context of those numbers or referencing the film. Gary's numbers were suppressed because he played behind the Smiths. Ferrell's numbers were suppressed because he hasn't been a good pass rusher and gets pulled on passing downs. More importantly, Gary looks much more quick, powerful, and explosive than Ferrell. Here's a number you might like, Gary was the highest rated PFF edge player from week 16 through the playoffs.

My argument against Arnette has just as much to do with what I thought about him as a prospect as how he played his first year. I would much rather have Okudah than Arnette because I believe in Okudah's ability--I don't believe in Arnette's ability.

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6 minutes ago, Rich7sena said:

You're looking right past my point. My point is both Ferrell and Arnette were allegedly drafted for their ability to play at a competent level right away. Arnette did not and Ferrell arguably did not. Conversely, other players who were viewed as being "developmental" either outperformed or played just as well (bad) as they did.

You regularly argue your points looking at numbers favorable to your side without considering the context of those numbers or referencing the film. Gary's numbers were suppressed because he played behind the Smiths. Ferrell's numbers were suppressed because he hasn't been a good pass rusher and gets pulled on passing downs. More importantly, Gary looks much more quick, powerful, and explosive than Ferrell. Here's a number you might like, Gary was the highest rated PFF edge player from week 16 through the playoffs.

My argument against Arnette has just as much to do with what I thought about him as a prospect as how he played his first year. I would much rather have Okudah than Arnette because I believe in Okudah's ability--I don't believe in Arnette's ability.

I agree that Ferrell has been outplayed by guys that were viewed as projects coming into the draft and it's looking like a bad pick so far. Gary's numbers were suppressed because he played with other pass rushers but you can also make the case that his production benefited from playing on a very good defense in more of a complimentary role. Look at Carl Nassib as an example of this, in Tampa Bay playing on a stacked defensive line he had 6.5 sacks in a complimentary role, but on our DL he was basically a non-factor. 

Gary definitely has better physical tools than Ferrell and a higher upside. But coming into the draft he hadn't had great pass rushing production in college and even in his first two NFL seasons he's been used as a backup/complimentary piece. Had we taken him at #4 he would've been forced into a starting role as a rookie just like Ferrell was. 

Obviously hindsight is 20-20 but in reality Brian Burns probably should've been the pick at #4. He was a physical freak that checked all of the boxes you look for in an edge rusher and looks like a guy that's poised to be one of the better edge rushers in the league sooner rather than later. But we passed on him because he "didn't fit the scheme." 

I'm not a huge fan of Arnette but I think that it's too early to really judge him. Corner is one of the toughest positions to make the transition and even elite CB's like Gilmore and Peters weren't great as rookies. Not to mention Arnette was banged up for most of the season and came into the league during the Covid year. 

The CB's drafted in the 1st/2nd last year (according to PFF):

Jeff Okudah (#3 overall): 30.9 coverage grade

CJ Henderson (#9 overall): 58.3 coverage grade

AJ Terrell (#16 overall): 57.0 coverage grade

Damon Arnette (#19 overall): 37.5 coverage grade

Noah Igbinoghene (#30 overall): 38.8 coverage grade

Jeff Gladney (#31 overall): 48.5 coverage grade 

Jaylon Johnson (#50 overall): 56.1 coverage grade

Trevon Diggs (#51 overall): 63.9 coverage grade

Kristian Fulton (#61 overall): 56.5 coverage grade

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19 hours ago, NYRaider said:

I agree that Ferrell has been outplayed by guys that were viewed as projects coming into the draft and it's looking like a bad pick so far. Gary's numbers were suppressed because he played with other pass rushers but you can also make the case that his production benefited from playing on a very good defense in more of a complimentary role. Look at Carl Nassib as an example of this, in Tampa Bay playing on a stacked defensive line he had 6.5 sacks in a complimentary role, but on our DL he was basically a non-factor. 

Gary definitely has better physical tools than Ferrell and a higher upside. But coming into the draft he hadn't had great pass rushing production in college and even in his first two NFL seasons he's been used as a backup/complimentary piece. Had we taken him at #4 he would've been forced into a starting role as a rookie just like Ferrell was. 

Obviously hindsight is 20-20 but in reality Brian Burns probably should've been the pick at #4. He was a physical freak that checked all of the boxes you look for in an edge rusher and looks like a guy that's poised to be one of the better edge rushers in the league sooner rather than later. But we passed on him because he "didn't fit the scheme." 

I'm not a huge fan of Arnette but I think that it's too early to really judge him. Corner is one of the toughest positions to make the transition and even elite CB's like Gilmore and Peters weren't great as rookies. Not to mention Arnette was banged up for most of the season and came into the league during the Covid year. 

The CB's drafted in the 1st/2nd last year (according to PFF):

Jeff Okudah (#3 overall): 30.9 coverage grade

CJ Henderson (#9 overall): 58.3 coverage grade

AJ Terrell (#16 overall): 57.0 coverage grade

Damon Arnette (#19 overall): 37.5 coverage grade

Noah Igbinoghene (#30 overall): 38.8 coverage grade

Jeff Gladney (#31 overall): 48.5 coverage grade 

Jaylon Johnson (#50 overall): 56.1 coverage grade

Trevon Diggs (#51 overall): 63.9 coverage grade

Kristian Fulton (#61 overall): 56.5 coverage grade

 

I liked Okudah  but he was overhyped because he wasn't an A+ athlete, same with Arnette.  Ohio always have good coaching and amazing pass rush, makes them look better then they are. 

 

No secret I wanted AJ Terrell, even at our first pick.  Get a WR later, back up was Jaylon Johnson.

If we was going to run Cover 3 then Diggs at 19 would've been perfect. 

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19 hours ago, NYRaider said:

I agree that Ferrell has been outplayed by guys that were viewed as projects coming into the draft and it's looking like a bad pick so far. Gary's numbers were suppressed because he played with other pass rushers but you can also make the case that his production benefited from playing on a very good defense in more of a complimentary role. Look at Carl Nassib as an example of this, in Tampa Bay playing on a stacked defensive line he had 6.5 sacks in a complimentary role, but on our DL he was basically a non-factor. 

Gary definitely has better physical tools than Ferrell and a higher upside. But coming into the draft he hadn't had great pass rushing production in college and even in his first two NFL seasons he's been used as a backup/complimentary piece. Had we taken him at #4 he would've been forced into a starting role as a rookie just like Ferrell was. 

Obviously hindsight is 20-20 but in reality Brian Burns probably should've been the pick at #4. He was a physical freak that checked all of the boxes you look for in an edge rusher and looks like a guy that's poised to be one of the better edge rushers in the league sooner rather than later. But we passed on him because he "didn't fit the scheme." 

I'm not a huge fan of Arnette but I think that it's too early to really judge him. Corner is one of the toughest positions to make the transition and even elite CB's like Gilmore and Peters weren't great as rookies. Not to mention Arnette was banged up for most of the season and came into the league during the Covid year. 

The CB's drafted in the 1st/2nd last year (according to PFF):

Jeff Okudah (#3 overall): 30.9 coverage grade

CJ Henderson (#9 overall): 58.3 coverage grade

AJ Terrell (#16 overall): 57.0 coverage grade

Damon Arnette (#19 overall): 37.5 coverage grade

Noah Igbinoghene (#30 overall): 38.8 coverage grade

Jeff Gladney (#31 overall): 48.5 coverage grade 

Jaylon Johnson (#50 overall): 56.1 coverage grade

Trevon Diggs (#51 overall): 63.9 coverage grade

Kristian Fulton (#61 overall): 56.5 coverage grade

LOL Paul gunther didn’t have have a real scheme 

concerning the rookie corners nobody wants to hear that because most of the people on here were out on Arnette long before he ever stepped on the field because of where he was drafted. 

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