Raiders Defense

[big_palooka]

4 minutes ago, Turnobili said:

Edelman has been one of the hardest covers in the league for a while

Exactly.... such a dumb argument to make. Edleman has made a career being a crafty route runner. Every DB gets beat at times.

[Humble_Beast]

6 hours ago, big_palooka said:

Just stop this comparison. Adams is far more talented player. Better instincts and feel for the game. 

DJ Swearinger is a more accurate comparison. 

I still see Abram with all pro potential. Sky is the limit 

[Jeremy408]

47 minutes ago, big_palooka said:

I love when posters use one play as if that defines the player. 

Adams has shown to be a competent play maker with 21.5 sacks, 29 TFL, 7 FF and 28 pass deflections. He plays with great instincts as an all around safety. He's played with plenty of competence in coverage on his way to 2 pro-bowls and an all-pro selection.

Abram has show no ball skills, no ability to read defense. No instincts. Need I go on? They started using him down hill as a blitzer late in the season, he managed to do nothing with those attempts.

I'm saying he has zero instincts to be successful in any role. He's athetlic enough, tough and rangy. He lacks mental skills that cannot be taught. 

We're not talking about about who's the better player. We're talking about how you said Abrams is a role player because he cant cover Wrs. Im showed you arguably the best box safety in the NFL couldn't cover a wr. 

Then you preceded to give me his stats. I gave you a visual film example of how An all-pro box safety cant cover a wr and you gave me his stats. Think about that. 

And it wasn't jus 1 play I sent you the whole highlight tape. Count for yourself the number of big plays were on him specifically. Here it is again. 

My overall point is as clear as it was in the beginning. Box safeties(even All pro ones) aren't meant to cover receivers(Especially ones that will run 4.3). If you take a good player out of his proper "Role" he becomes a bad player because of what you're asking him to do. 

[Jeremy408]

1 hour ago, Turnobili said:

Edelman has been one of the hardest covers in the league for a while

Wasnt just Edelman

When Jamal Adams has been the nearest defender to the targeted receiver, the Patriots are 6-6 for 157 yards, per NFL Next Gen Stats.

[big_palooka]

Let's table this until we see if Abram can even play in the box. I still say he lacks the mental side of the game to be successful in any role. 

 

[Jeremy408]

1 hour ago, big_palooka said:

Exactly.... such a dumb argument to make. Edleman has made a career being a crafty route runner. Every DB gets beat at times.

Time out so you mean to tell me And all pro In the prime of his career can't cover a 33 year old receiver Who didn't practice all week going into the game? 

If you say yes then you have to answer why And all pro safety in the prime of his career allowed a 33-year-old to have a career game against him specifically(With a washed up quarterback not tom brady)

 

[Jeremy408]

2 minutes ago, big_palooka said:

Let's table this until we see if Abram can even play in the box. I still say he lacks the mental side of the game to be successful in any role. 

 

The only problem with that is a lot of players look dumb when they're out of position that plays to their Strengths. I would've like to see Cam chancellor run down the field with 4.3 receivers and see how they turned out for him. 

Would've been very interesting to see Jamall Adams play single high safety lol

Hey I respect that. Next year we will definitely see if put in a role that actually suits his strengths(98% of the good/great NFL). But day he could still be trash. I'm not saying that he wont be(No I personally think he's going to thrive in that role) I'm just saying we can't just assume Anything under Paul Gunther(Where most of the players on our team were used wrong). I personally think that's why they're taking a look at Karl Joseph again lol. 

[big_palooka]

3 minutes ago, Jeremy408 said:

Time out so you mean to tell me And all pro In the prime of his career can't cover a 33 year old receiver Who didn't practice all week going into the game? 

If you say yes then you have to answer why And all pro safety in the prime of his career allowed a 33-year-old to have a career game against him specifically(With a washed up quarterback not tom brady)

 

I mean to tell you I don't care what Adams has done. Abram can't hold his jock in any facet of the game. Moving him to the box doesn't fix his inability to mentally process the game and play under control. 

[Jeremy408]

10 minutes ago, big_palooka said:

I mean to tell you I don't care what Adams has done. Abram can't hold his jock in any facet of the game. Moving him to the box doesn't fix his inability to mentally process the game and play under control. 

Actually it does. Because playing box safety means you don't have As many responsibilities because you're in the box. Someone can look very intelligent when they Only have to worry about a handful of things. That's what the box safety role is. You don't have to worry about a 4.3 receiver running down the field. I also think it when you don't have to worry about plays You're doing the same exact thing every down when you're able to play more under control because the game is slower. 

Think about it this way... Will Compton a linebacker who has been in the league for a long time had this to say about Paul Gunther's playbook:I want to say it was my first start and, again, I’m still trying to catch up to a lot of stuff and I’m sitting there going over our third down plan and I’m like we’ve got about 25-30 calls on just third down defense. Which is a lot for a defense because you only have so many plays you can run during the week. When you are game planning and practicing, you have about 30-ish plays that you run during practice. Fifteen of those you might be working on third down on Thursday. One day a week you are working on specifically third down, you tie it all together on Friday and Saturday you do a couple plays, but to get through a lot of the game planning it would be hard because you run a lot of the new calls and stuff and then when you get in the game, the entire book was open. It was like a Madden playbook… there was just a lot going on.”

If a Middle linebacker(QB of the defense) is saying that theres too many plays, Imagine being a DB(Especially a box safety). When you're not thinking about what player running you're able to just react. 

Edited April 9, 2021 by Jeremy408

[ronjon1990]

7 minutes ago, big_palooka said:

I mean to tell you I don't care what Adams has done. Abram can't hold his jock in any facet of the game. Moving him to the box doesn't fix his inability to mentally process the game and play under control. 

People actually try and compare Abram to Adams and want to be taken seriously....

Abram lacks the mental instincts and overall discipline necessary for his on-field play to match his physical abilities. 

They want to cite to his "potential" as definitive, totally ignoring that every 1st round bust or let down has oozed "potential". It's a cop-out. 

MAYBE a new scheme helps him out a bit, and it wouldn't be the first time that's happened for a player. But so far, his brain dead play transcends a mere scheme. Reckless play is reckless play regardless of scheme, as is undisciplined play. 

He wasn't just "schemed" out of position on coverages, we ALL saw him totally abandon them plenty of times. I can recall more flags and injuries to teammates from him than impact plays. That isn't just a "scheme" issue, and something that he was criticized for leading up to the draft. We didn't hear "In the correct scheme, his potential could be reached.", we heard "If he can learn to play with discipline and limit his penchant for penalties, he might be a stud.". He's done neither, and I'd say hasn't even improved in any beneficial manner. 

It's not rocket science, is it? The guy isn't a S. They should just move him to LB. Maybe then he can have a realistic impact. But as it stands, he doesn't have the mental makeup of an NFL worthy S and only serves to hamstring an already suspect secondary. 

Short of contrarian Grudock apologists, I really can't believe this is even anything short of a firm consensus. 

[ronjon1990]

21 hours ago, drfrey13 said:

Erik Harris took a similar role that Carr took with the offense in the off-season.  I have not seen any evidence that he had his head up Gruden's butt like Carr but I would not be surprised.  To make it in Gruden's world you have to kiss the ring and those that speak up are shipped off.  That is why I loved Gannon.  He executed Gruden's offense but was not afraid to speak up and defend his decisions.  I loved watching those to yell at each other on the sideline.  I want to see Carr speak when Gruden makes a stupid play call that has not worked the previous 12 tries.  He gets made at the players or just yells something coming off the field and when he gets to Gruden it looks like he is asking what did I do wrong instead of telling Gruden that was a bad call.

I wanna see him argue about settling for FGs in situations we should be trusting our offense. 

[Jeremy408]

24 minutes ago, ronjon1990 said:

People actually try and compare Abram to Adams and want to be taken seriously....

Abram lacks the mental instincts and overall discipline necessary for his on-field play to match his physical abilities. 

They want to cite to his "potential" as definitive, totally ignoring that every 1st round bust or let down has oozed "potential". It's a cop-out. 

MAYBE a new scheme helps him out a bit, and it wouldn't be the first time that's happened for a player. But so far, his brain dead play transcends a mere scheme. Reckless play is reckless play regardless of scheme, as is undisciplined play. 

He wasn't just "schemed" out of position on coverages, we ALL saw him totally abandon them plenty of times. I can recall more flags and injuries to teammates from him than impact plays. That isn't just a "scheme" issue, and something that he was criticized for leading up to the draft. We didn't hear "In the correct scheme, his potential could be reached.", we heard "If he can learn to play with discipline and limit his penchant for penalties, he might be a stud.". He's done neither, and I'd say hasn't even improved in any beneficial manner. 

It's not rocket science, is it? The guy isn't a S. They should just move him to LB. Maybe then he can have a realistic impact. But as it stands, he doesn't have the mental makeup of an NFL worthy S and only serves to hamstring an already suspect secondary. 

Short of contrarian Grudock apologists, I really can't believe this is even anything short of a firm consensus. 

The problem with that is it doesn't account for the reality that when you're playing in

1.A multiple defense(Specially at safety) and you're switching between formations and between FS and SS/ Split safety and ocassionally single high

2. The defense that you're playing and is described to have 30 3rd down plays alone per week (Think about that. Most teams have like 40 defensive plays players total in their entire playbook)......

...You're bound to do stupid things like run out of position because you might not even know what play you're running. You're thinking too much instead of reacting. 

No matter what anyone says we haven't seen him at what he was drafted to play which was BOX safety(You know where all you have to do is play the box and not cover receivers that run 4.3 or play single high). Can he at least play the position that he was drafted to play(the position that got him recognized to get drafted). Before we label him a bust and say he should switch positions? That's not rocket science lol

By the way I had no point sad that he had discipline or that he didn't do stupid stuff That had a direct impact on us losing games. He probably pissed me off more than any player on the team(by far). I'm just realistic and don't throw the baby out with the bathwater. 

Edited April 9, 2021 by Jeremy408

[ronjon1990]

27 minutes ago, Jeremy408 said:

The problem with that is it doesn't account for the reality that when you're playing in

1.A multiple defense(Specially at safety) and you're switching between formations and between FS and SS/ Split safety and ocassionally single high

2. The defense that you're playing and is described to have 30 3rd down plays alone per week (Think about that. Most teams have like 40 defensive plays players total in their entire playbook)......

...You're bound to do stupid things like run out of position because you might not even know what play you're running. You're thinking too much instead of reacting. 

No matter what anyone says we haven't seen him at what he was drafted to play which was BOX safety(You know where all you have to do is play the box and not cover receivers that run 4.3 or play single high). Can he at least play the position that he was drafted to play(the position that got him recognized to get drafted). Before we label him a bust and say he should switch positions? That's not rocket science lol

By the way I had no point sad that he had discipline or that he didn't do stupid stuff That had a direct impact on us losing games. He probably pissed me off more than any player on the team(by far). I'm just realistic and don't throw the baby out with the bathwater. 

Except that isn't what he did. He has a penchant for 100% abandoning a play clear as day. We aren't talking about splitting off a coverage and screwing up responsibilities, we're talking him going through like 80% of a play and arbitrarily deciding to do something insane like run at a QB target 30 yards back up field, where he not only blows his coverage, but his decision making in indefensible based on an overwhelming majority of possible outcomes to his actions. 

We did. We drafted him to play Strong Safety. You're talking about a particular use, not position. First, it was a bad pick to begin with that puzzled most people. Second, how he's used has little bearing on the majority of issues most people have- that he's overly reckless on the field. Changing how he's schemed doesn't address that. Frankly, I think he's hot garbage and wouldn't succeed even with a position switch, because he has done nothing but play a majority of his snaps like hot garbage. 

Oh believe me, we all know about your self-congratulatory labelling. But the reality is simple: you're trying to excuse his poor play with your own scheme fetish, but why people are saying he's bad isn't scheme-determinant, it's the bare basics of playing any position on defense in the NFL. 

[Jeremy408]

1 hour ago, ronjon1990 said:

Except that isn't what he did. He has a penchant for 100% abandoning a play clear as day. We aren't talking about splitting off a coverage and screwing up responsibilities, we're talking him going through like 80% of a play and arbitrarily deciding to do something insane like run at a QB target 30 yards back up field, where he not only blows his coverage, but his decision making in indefensible based on an overwhelming majority of possible outcomes to his actions. 

We did. We drafted him to play Strong Safety. You're talking about a particular use, not position. First, it was a bad pick to begin with that puzzled most people. Second, how he's used has little bearing on the majority of issues most people have- that he's overly reckless on the field. Changing how he's schemed doesn't address that. Frankly, I think he's hot garbage and wouldn't succeed even with a position switch, because he has done nothing but play a majority of his snaps like hot garbage. 

Oh believe me, we all know about your self-congratulatory labelling. But the reality is simple: you're trying to excuse his poor play with your own scheme fetish, but why people are saying he's bad isn't scheme-determinant, it's the bare basics of playing any position on defense in the NFL. 

This is what I'm referring to. There's no reason why he should be playing anything but box safety. I'm a big proponent of a player should be doing what got him noticed in college(If even at the very least at the beginning of their career before growing and evolving into more stuff)

Yeah we drafted him to play strong safety but this isn't madden(where if a Strong safety has a good overall rating he can play in any form of defense). Playing strong safety on one defense Is very different than playing strong safety in another defense(As with all non-defensive lineman positions on defense). In Paul Gunther's defense the strong safety and the free safety are interchangeable so in reality There is no such thing as a strong safety or free safety in call Gunther's defense. In a defense like Gus Bradleys a free safety is a true free safety(AKA Single high safety or Post safety) and a strong safety is a true strong safety(AKA a box safety). And Jonathan Abrams was in college he played box safety(Not interchangeable safety)

I already mentioned that I agree about the stupid stuff(Which is also coachable and common for players to grow from stupid stuff like that). What do I mean by this?

1. One thing the Seattle cover 3 defense is known for is an Emphasis on developing players. When you don't run as many plays and you only have a limited amount of responsibilities per position. The focus is more on coaching players To get better at the limited things that they're ask to do(And weeding out all of the stupid stuff)

2. Also I think a lot of the stupid stuff had to do with last year essentially being his rookie year. And I think we saw in the last two games this past year that he actually played under control at the end. So with that being said it's not really far-fetched to say that he can't clean that stuff up. 

Not sure what you meant by "self congratulatory labeling" so i can't really comment on that

Edited April 9, 2021 by Jeremy408

[MrOaktown_56]

3 hours ago, big_palooka said:

I love when posters use one play as if that defines the player. 

Adams has shown to be a competent play maker with 21.5 sacks, 29 TFL, 7 FF and 28 pass deflections. He plays with great instincts as an all around safety. He's played with plenty of competence in coverage on his way to 2 pro-bowls and an all-pro selection.

Abram has show no ball skills, no ability to read defense. No instincts. Need I go on? They started using him down hill as a blitzer late in the season, he managed to do nothing with those attempts.

I'm saying he has zero instincts to be successful in any role. He's athetlic enough, tough and rangy. He lacks mental skills that cannot be taught. 

He generated a lot of pressure actually.

Also,  how are you defining ball skills? He's definitely not a Nevin Lawson. He had a nice pick of newton in addition to the tip.