Raiders Defense

[Darbsk]

14 hours ago, NYRaider said:

Damon will be 25 as a second year player and the value in taking him early was that he was supposedly NFL ready. He struggled badly last season and has limited upside because he lacks elite physical tools.

This is a good point. He was supposed to be a plug and play starter due to his age, big programme experience and supposed fit with our scheme (although the film clearly showed him struggling in off coverage and that he would be best in press man which we used him sparingly). I will cut him some slack as he had injuries and issues with Covid but we need to see some flashes this year at least as yet again our picks are not producing at a level that would justify where they were taken and regardless of the FO spin we failed yet again to not just maximise value but get good value. 

[Darbsk]

15 hours ago, NYRaider said:

 

 

Edited June 20, 2021 by Darbsk
Duplicate post

[Darbsk]

9 hours ago, drfrey13 said:

Arnette was not a bad player coming out but I think with the information we had at the time of the draft he was not a 1st round pick.  I wanted him in the 2nd with Kinlaw and Jefferson in the 1st.  I wonder how we would have drafted without Guenther the past 3 years.

It makes me wonder what an awful decision that was to hire him and how much he may have stunted our growth and development with not just poor coaching but with going out of our way to draft guys for him that may not now be good fits for the next guy. I do have a lot more belief in Bradley but how much further along could we have been.................. 😤

[drfrey13]

3 hours ago, Darbsk said:

It makes me wonder what an awful decision that was to hire him and how much he may have stunted our growth and development with not just poor coaching but with going out of our way to draft guys for him that may not now be good fits for the next guy. I do have a lot more belief in Bradley but how much further along could we have been.................. 😤

I was angry when we first hired him.  Most in here kept telling me he was good and to let it go.  I have wanted nothing to do with Guenther and Cable.  

[ronjon1990]

1 hour ago, drfrey13 said:

I was angry when we first hired him.  Most in here kept telling me he was good and to let it go.  I have wanted nothing to do with Guenther and Cable.  

Thing is....I actually tend to trust Cable. He undoubtedly has some sway that leads to some reach-like picks, but he's earned his keep with how our O-line has performed and progressed these last few seasons. He's not perfect, but he's way down my complaint list. 

Guenther was a disaster. We kept him about 8-9 weeks too long last year. Not that I think Marinelli is some savior either, but it will forever be my impression that our D began to simply stop trying after a while. Shame on them, but it was beyond obvious Guenther wasn't going to make it to 2021, so whoever made the decision to keep him so long is an idiot. 

[drfrey13]

21 minutes ago, ronjon1990 said:

Thing is....I actually tend to trust Cable. He undoubtedly has some sway that leads to some reach-like picks, but he's earned his keep with how our O-line has performed and progressed these last few seasons. He's not perfect, but he's way down my complaint list. 

Guenther was a disaster. We kept him about 8-9 weeks too long last year. Not that I think Marinelli is some savior either, but it will forever be my impression that our D began to simply stop trying after a while. Shame on them, but it was beyond obvious Guenther wasn't going to make it to 2021, so whoever made the decision to keep him so long is an idiot. 

Cable has been given draft capital and we have paid to much for our o-line.  He has been given more than any o-line coach in the league and the return has been mediocre.  We have a QB that feels the need to throw the ball within 2.5 seconds and does not trust his o-line.  Our y/carry has been in the bottom half of the league the past 3 years.  We have committed more to the o-line than it has given back.  There was a lot of turnover this year so hopefully it works but the talent level has dropped.  At least they are paid less now and hopefully the players will want to actually be on the field.  Our starters did not want to play for us last year and I think a lot of it has to do with Cable.

[Darbsk]

2 hours ago, drfrey13 said:

I was angry when we first hired him.  Most in here kept telling me he was good and to let it go.  I have wanted nothing to do with Guenther and Cable.  

Have to be honest and say I was a little in the dark when we hired Paul Guenther as I hadn't seen a heck of a lot of Bengals games over the previous year or two. I really didn't know what to expect though I really liked Mike Zimmer, especially as a DC so expected a lot more frankly. He was a total dud and Gruden should really be taking a lot of heat for what was after all his hand picked selection. 

[ronjon1990]

2 hours ago, drfrey13 said:

Cable has been given draft capital and we have paid to much for our o-line.  He has been given more than any o-line coach in the league and the return has been mediocre.  We have a QB that feels the need to throw the ball within 2.5 seconds and does not trust his o-line.  Our y/carry has been in the bottom half of the league the past 3 years.  We have committed more to the o-line than it has given back.  There was a lot of turnover this year so hopefully it works but the talent level has dropped.  At least they are paid less now and hopefully the players will want to actually be on the field.  Our starters did not want to play for us last year and I think a lot of it has to do with Cable.

The way it turned out, yes, was a problem. 

But let's be fair. 

We were 100% going OT when we took Miller. Parker, maybe a luxury pick at OT, but a need nonetheless.

Brown was a disaster for himself and to himself. He's like LeGarrette Blount- always did well in New England, but was mediocre or bad elsewhere. 

Keeping Gabe, Hudson, and signing Incognito were all good moves that we would've been dumb not to make considering the O-line play we'd had. Plenty were sad to see Gabe and Hudson go. 

In a perfect world, Miller-Jackson-Hudson-Incognito-Brown is an expensive, yet absolutely elite O-line. The problem is we barely ever got to see it, and that just isn't Cable's fault. Every one of those guys can play at a very high level- but we missed an entire side of the line (to wit- the strong running side) for most of the season. 

As for YPC over the last 3 years....

We trotted out a retired and worn down Marshawn Lynch ffs. And maybe Jacobs isn't all world. Or maybe both and the O-line has been banged up? Again, I can't put that on Cable. 

Carr has a fast release? This is where you lose me a bit more. He throws the ball away too quickly AND has way too many fumbles (aka: not throwing the ball away fast enough and holding onto it)? Again, I fail to see how that becomes entirely Cable's fault. 

Maybe that quick release has to do with our defacto #1 WR having pitiful route running last year to the point of being an utterly useless decoy after a couple of weeks? Our most reliable WR being a deep threat we weren't going to dial up to every play? Our top playmaker being a TE? Carr has completed 69, 70, and 67% of his passes over the last 3 years with only Darren Waller and Hunter Renfrow being his consistent guys. A TE. And a 3rd down specialist, almost certainly in on blitz plays requiring a fast release.

The fast release hasn't exactly hurt us and could just as easily be Carr making a quick release knowing our routes are limited. Agholor needed to be wide open deep to have a big impact. Waller is a TE and not running deep routes. Ruggs was used more behind the LOS than beyond it for crying out loud. What could Carr possibly be waiting for to develop the majority of the time other than a low % deep attempt? That's not the O-line, and not Cable. 

As for people not wanting to play....Miller, Jackson, and Hudson all sure enough did. Incognito came back over retirement. So that leaves that lazy turd Brown- who doesn't "want" to play for anyone other than dead presidents. Jackson isn't here due to cost cutting. And Hudson wanted  out primarily due to Gruden and Mayock clearly having no clue what they're doing. 

I don't necessarily like the amount of turnover we just had, but it wasn't Cable that caused it. But the rest of the criticisms....I find them very misguided.

[NYRaider]

10 hours ago, Darbsk said:

This is a good point. He was supposed to be a plug and play starter due to his age, big programme experience and supposed fit with our scheme (although the film clearly showed him struggling in off coverage and that he would be best in press man which we used him sparingly). I will cut him some slack as he had injuries and issues with Covid but we need to see some flashes this year at least as yet again our picks are not producing at a level that would justify where they were taken and regardless of the FO spin we failed yet again to not just maximise value but get good value. 

Yeah almost all of the rookie CB's struggled but he has to play much better this season to justify where we picked him. Bradley doesn't seem to be a huge fan of his, although it's still very early. 

[drfrey13]

4 hours ago, Darbsk said:

Have to be honest and say I was a little in the dark when we hired Paul Guenther as I hadn't seen a heck of a lot of Bengals games over the previous year or two. I really didn't know what to expect though I really liked Mike Zimmer, especially as a DC so expected a lot more frankly. He was a total dud and Gruden should really be taking a lot of heat for what was after all his hand picked selection. 

There is a reason why the defense looked better with Burfict in there.  He understood the defense better than Guenther.  Guenther took over a good defense in Cinci with vets that knew what they needed to know already.

[drfrey13]

1 hour ago, ronjon1990 said:

The way it turned out, yes, was a problem. 

But let's be fair. 

We were 100% going OT when we took Miller. Parker, maybe a luxury pick at OT, but a need nonetheless.

Brown was a disaster for himself and to himself. He's like LeGarrette Blount- always did well in New England, but was mediocre or bad elsewhere. 

Keeping Gabe, Hudson, and signing Incognito were all good moves that we would've been dumb not to make considering the O-line play we'd had. Plenty were sad to see Gabe and Hudson go. 

In a perfect world, Miller-Jackson-Hudson-Incognito-Brown is an expensive, yet absolutely elite O-line. The problem is we barely ever got to see it, and that just isn't Cable's fault. Every one of those guys can play at a very high level- but we missed an entire side of the line (to wit- the strong running side) for most of the season. 

As for YPC over the last 3 years....

We trotted out a retired and worn down Marshawn Lynch ffs. And maybe Jacobs isn't all world. Or maybe both and the O-line has been banged up? Again, I can't put that on Cable. 

Carr has a fast release? This is where you lose me a bit more. He throws the ball away too quickly AND has way too many fumbles (aka: not throwing the ball away fast enough and holding onto it)? Again, I fail to see how that becomes entirely Cable's fault. 

Maybe that quick release has to do with our defacto #1 WR having pitiful route running last year to the point of being an utterly useless decoy after a couple of weeks? Our most reliable WR being a deep threat we weren't going to dial up to every play? Our top playmaker being a TE? Carr has completed 69, 70, and 67% of his passes over the last 3 years with only Darren Waller and Hunter Renfrow being his consistent guys. A TE. And a 3rd down specialist, almost certainly in on blitz plays requiring a fast release.

The fast release hasn't exactly hurt us and could just as easily be Carr making a quick release knowing our routes are limited. Agholor needed to be wide open deep to have a big impact. Waller is a TE and not running deep routes. Ruggs was used more behind the LOS than beyond it for crying out loud. What could Carr possibly be waiting for to develop the majority of the time other than a low % deep attempt? That's not the O-line, and not Cable. 

As for people not wanting to play....Miller, Jackson, and Hudson all sure enough did. Incognito came back over retirement. So that leaves that lazy turd Brown- who doesn't "want" to play for anyone other than dead presidents. Jackson isn't here due to cost cutting. And Hudson wanted  out primarily due to Gruden and Mayock clearly having no clue what they're doing. 

I don't necessarily like the amount of turnover we just had, but it wasn't Cable that caused it. But the rest of the criticisms....I find them very misguided.

This I see as an excuse. Signing a 36 year old G is taking a risk.  Giving a RT that much money is ridiculous.  When a player quits or is injury prone that is still on the coaches.  Hudson and Jackson had nothing to do with Cable.  He did not draft or sign them.  Miller has worked out but our oline almost mentally broke Carr in 2018.  Big part was Cable not willing to move pieces around because he wanted to keep a hurt Miller at LT when he should have rested and we tried Parker at LT and had a RT play RT.  So we have had questionable FAs, draft picks, and in season decisions that have hurt this team.  But hey Miller is a good LT.  I will throw out 2017 because the team was dysfunctional and I will throw out 2018 because it was the first year with horrible tackle play.  Was the o-line better under Tice or Cable?

[Jerry]

5 hours ago, drfrey13 said:

Cable has been given draft capital and we have paid to much for our o-line.  He has been given more than any o-line coach in the league and the return has been mediocre.  We have a QB that feels the need to throw the ball within 2.5 seconds and does not trust his o-line.  Our y/carry has been in the bottom half of the league the past 3 years.  We have committed more to the o-line than it has given back.  There was a lot of turnover this year so hopefully it works but the talent level has dropped.  At least they are paid less now and hopefully the players will want to actually be on the field.  Our starters did not want to play for us last year and I think a lot of it has to do with Cable.

Rodney Hudson was never top tier in running the ball.  Kolton Miller isn't either.  The only road grader we really had was Incognito.  T. Brown and G. Jackson are literally the two individuals we were paying way too much for.  G. Jackson is average and T. Brown was 100 lbs overweight and on a quest to catch COVID-19 like they it's a legendary Pokémon.  You saying DC doesn't trust our OL is speculation.  Of course we committed more to the OL than we've gotten back, G. Jackson has been injury prone, T. Brown was 400 lbs of garbage and Inc went down.  R. Hudson is great against the pass, average in the run.  Most teams probably wouldn't pay Hudson what we paid him for his services unless they're desperate for OL help.  A lot of teams have really good centers at half or third of the price of Hudson.  Our starters played fine.  The only starter that did not want to play for us was clearly T. Brown.  You're really going hard with this argument.  I think it's a little too much.  Your whole post is essentially "damned if we do and damned if we don't."

Had to get cheaper and younger eventually and we did.  All there is to it.  Hudson won't be here forever.  Jackson is getting ready for another lucrative contract if we keep him, and T. Brown would have been at the buffet table Monday through Saturday if we kept him.

[drfrey13]

42 minutes ago, Jerry said:

Rodney Hudson was never top tier in running the ball.  Kolton Miller isn't either.  The only road grader we really had was Incognito.  T. Brown and G. Jackson are literally the two individuals we were paying way too much for.  G. Jackson is average and T. Brown was 100 lbs overweight and on a quest to catch COVID-19 like they it's a legendary Pokémon.  You saying DC doesn't trust our OL is speculation.  Of course we committed more to the OL than we've gotten back, G. Jackson has been injury prone, T. Brown was 400 lbs of garbage and Inc went down.  R. Hudson is great against the pass, average in the run.  Most teams probably wouldn't pay Hudson what we paid him for his services unless they're desperate for OL help.  A lot of teams have really good centers at half or third of the price of Hudson.  Our starters played fine.  The only starter that did not want to play for us was clearly T. Brown.  You're really going hard with this argument.  I think it's a little too much.  Your whole post is essentially "damned if we do and damned if we don't."

Had to get cheaper and younger eventually and we did.  All there is to it.  Hudson won't be here forever.  Jackson is getting ready for another lucrative contract if we keep him, and T. Brown would have been at the buffet table Monday through Saturday if we kept him.

What I am saying is that Cable has a lot of input when it comes to o-line personnel and therefore deserves some of the blame for bringing in questionable players.  To just say guys were hurt so it was not his fault is BS.  The choices of Incognito, Brown, Parker, and Miller are on him.  The choice to keep Miller in after the injury and keep Parker at RT is on him.  How many years of underachievement on the o-line do we need before we say Cable is not the answer.  Seattle came to the same conclusion.  I already said if James and Leatherwood play well along with Incognito staying healthy or Simpson playing well I will give him the credit.  There is a long list of disappointments since 2018 vs 1 improvement in Miller.  If Leatherwood and James disappoint we should get a new o-line coach.

[Jeremy408]

3 hours ago, ronjon1990 said:

The way it turned out, yes, was a problem. 

But let's be fair. 

We were 100% going OT when we took Miller. Parker, maybe a luxury pick at OT, but a need nonetheless.

Brown was a disaster for himself and to himself. He's like LeGarrette Blount- always did well in New England, but was mediocre or bad elsewhere. 

Keeping Gabe, Hudson, and signing Incognito were all good moves that we would've been dumb not to make considering the O-line play we'd had. Plenty were sad to see Gabe and Hudson go. 

In a perfect world, Miller-Jackson-Hudson-Incognito-Brown is an expensive, yet absolutely elite O-line. The problem is we barely ever got to see it, and that just isn't Cable's fault. Every one of those guys can play at a very high level- but we missed an entire side of the line (to wit- the strong running side) for most of the season. 

As for YPC over the last 3 years....

We trotted out a retired and worn down Marshawn Lynch ffs. And maybe Jacobs isn't all world. Or maybe both and the O-line has been banged up? Again, I can't put that on Cable. 

Carr has a fast release? This is where you lose me a bit more. He throws the ball away too quickly AND has way too many fumbles (aka: not throwing the ball away fast enough and holding onto it)? Again, I fail to see how that becomes entirely Cable's fault. 

Maybe that quick release has to do with our defacto #1 WR having pitiful route running last year to the point of being an utterly useless decoy after a couple of weeks? Our most reliable WR being a deep threat we weren't going to dial up to every play? Our top playmaker being a TE? Carr has completed 69, 70, and 67% of his passes over the last 3 years with only Darren Waller and Hunter Renfrow being his consistent guys. A TE. And a 3rd down specialist, almost certainly in on blitz plays requiring a fast release.

The fast release hasn't exactly hurt us and could just as easily be Carr making a quick release knowing our routes are limited. Agholor needed to be wide open deep to have a big impact. Waller is a TE and not running deep routes. Ruggs was used more behind the LOS than beyond it for crying out loud. What could Carr possibly be waiting for to develop the majority of the time other than a low % deep attempt? That's not the O-line, and not Cable. 

As for people not wanting to play....Miller, Jackson, and Hudson all sure enough did. Incognito came back over retirement. So that leaves that lazy turd Brown- who doesn't "want" to play for anyone other than dead presidents. Jackson isn't here due to cost cutting. And Hudson wanted  out primarily due to Gruden and Mayock clearly having no clue what they're doing. 

I don't necessarily like the amount of turnover we just had, but it wasn't Cable that caused it. But the rest of the criticisms....I find them very misguided.

That’s kind of been my perspective for the last two months when it comes to the offensive line. It sounds crazy in theory to the outside world in on ESPN or FS21 because ESPN/FS21 doesn’t care how many games they actually play together and The repercussions of when we have to trot Sam Young out there for most of the season. 
 

The only one I think I’ll probably miss is Rodney Hudson but I can even understand why they traded him in one of those scenarios where in a year you won’t get anything beyond a Fourth or fifth round pick due to the fact that he’s only going to get older every year and he’s approaching mid 30s

[ronjon1990]

16 hours ago, drfrey13 said:

What I am saying is that Cable has a lot of input when it comes to o-line personnel and therefore deserves some of the blame for bringing in questionable players.  To just say guys were hurt so it was not his fault is BS.  The choices of Incognito, Brown, Parker, and Miller are on him.  The choice to keep Miller in after the injury and keep Parker at RT is on him.  How many years of underachievement on the o-line do we need before we say Cable is not the answer.  Seattle came to the same conclusion.  I already said if James and Leatherwood play well along with Incognito staying healthy or Simpson playing well I will give him the credit.  There is a long list of disappointments since 2018 vs 1 improvement in Miller.  If Leatherwood and James disappoint we should get a new o-line coach.

1. Guys were hurt though. And unless he Randy Hanson'd them....not his fault. 

2. Incognito has been a good pick up, injury aside. Miller has been a bright spot. Parker hasn't been absolute trash. And Brown was considered a rock solid signing across the league. 

3. What alternative was there? Put Young in? 

4. He's been here for 3 seasons bro.

In 2020, we dipped to the 24th ranked unit missing half of the line to injury/covid. 

In 2019, we were 15th. 

In 2018, when he took over, we ranked like 27th while playing rebuilding following drafting Miller and Parker, losing Watson and watching Osemele fall flat, and losing Donald Penn in week 4.

He's had 1 season of regression on the line and it came during a bizarre season where injuries also hurt a lot. 

Edited June 21, 2021 by ronjon1990