Raiders Defense

[MrOaktown_56]

2 minutes ago, NYRaider said:

Sewell/Slater have both played well IIRC, but they're both playing LT. Don't a lot of guys say it's difficult to switch sides?

Yeah it is. Probably part of leatherwoods struggles, but his hand usage is trash. If he used his length well he would be a good starter right now because of his power/frame. But he doesn’t.

[NYRaider]

Just now, MrOaktown_56 said:

Yeah it is. Probably part of leatherwoods struggles, but his hand usage is trash. If he used his length well he would be a good starter right now because of his power/frame. But he doesn’t.

Kolton Miller was absolutely terrible as a rookie but has developed into a good player for us so I don't think all hope is lost with Leatherwood. But we're in a win now situation or Mayock is likely gone and who knows what the future holds for Carr or Gruden so we don't really have a ton of time to wait it out. 

Funny enough Leatherwood shares a lot of similarities with another Alabama OT that Cable pounded the table for in the 1st round in James Carpenter. Carpenter (6'5" 320, 34" arms) played LT at Alabama and the Seahawks drafted him in the 1st round to play RT when most had him graded as a 2nd/3rd round prospect. He started like half of his rookie season at RT before moving inside to LG. Leatherwood (6'5" 315, 34" arms) played LT at Alabama, was drafted in the 1st round to play RT when most had him projected as a 2nd/3rd round prospect, and he is now moving inside to OG. 

[Darbsk]

11 hours ago, Mr Raider said:

Seems we were pretty much in the same line of thinking in almost every aspect. 

That's a very good point about Deablo being a worse version of JOK. You could also say the same thing in a general sense for Koonce and Ojulari. Both undersized for the DE position that were projected to make their money with their athleticism and bend around the edge to get to the QB. Obviously Koonce played at a much smaller school against significantly inferior competition, but both guys were projected to kind of win in the same ways and impact the game with similar styles. 

And with that being the case I would absolutely give up assets to get the Ojulari and JOK version over saving the assets and getting Deablo and Koonce later. Don't get me wrong, I do think both Deablo and Koonce can be solid, contributing players in a year or so going forward. Both guys do have things to really like and they are worth developing. I am more hopeful of Deablo personally than Koonce just because I like the games I saw of him in college more, he at least played against a power 5 conference competition, today's NFL game has seen a lot of success with those S/LB hybrid type players, and Bradley and the L.O.B. tree of defenses has a pretty good track record of finding guys similar to Deablo and getting a ton out of them. Once he got hurt and missed almost all of camp I kind of chalked this season up to a straight development year, pretty much doing what they have with keeping him on the roster for depth as long as we are somewhat healthy, letting him get comfortable with the scheme and the NFL game overall, and put more and more on his plate as the season goes on. 

I kind of expected Koonce to have a redshirt year from the jump, but hoped he would flash enough in camp and preseason to force the staff into giving him at least a situational pass rusher role immediately. Obviously that was a long shot. But my hope for that largely came from the fact that I just don't think 3rd round picks should be invested in guys that need a redshirt year before they can hopefully even contribute at all. Koonce was the type of prospect that fit the mold of a guy I personally would love to draft and take a shot on in the 5th, 6th, 7th round and undrafted type guys. In the first three rounds I want guys that can start or at the very least fill a role of good depth at their position (or hopefully multiple spots if they aren't starting) for the first year. Even a guy like Ruggs in the first I was content even if I would have taken Lamb over him (Ruggs was my 2nd choice if it was a WR though) because even though I believed he would need some time to develop to be what we were drafting him to be, I still thought there was a significant role he was good enough to fill immediately and then as he developed he could take over a larger role. Koonce to this point is a disappointment. Sure with Yannick and Maxx there wasn't a starting role open to him, but Nassib and Ferrell certainly could yield some snaps if Koonce showed enough. Ojulari is similar in the sense of being a smaller, explosive, twitchy, bendy pass rusher, but he also was really refined, had experience with his hand in the dirt and standing up, and even played coverage some, and despite his size he was a factor in the run game. So while similar in a lot of ways on paper, Ojulari could have immediately come in and IMO started at SLB even in the most traditional sense, but he also is so talented that he would have taken the majority of Nassib and Ferrells reps, heck he may have forced Ferrell off the team altogether. Not to mention the benefit the team would have overall to have a full 60 minutes of Yannick, Crosby, Ojulari and Nassib being much fresher than most teams edge players. 

I'm not giving up on either, and I actually really look forward to see in Deablo can earn more and more playing time as the season goes along, and seeing his development from year one to year two. Koonce could surprise and take a big step too after a year of adjusting to the huge talented increase in terms of what he has experience facing. But I am more confident in Deablo currently. With that said, while more comfortable with him I can't say I am extremely confident he is going to be as good as we should expect him to be for a third round pick. 

So if I were the one making the decisions and I knew a LB/S hybrid type guy that could give our defense a ton of speed, coverage, versatility, etc and a edge rusher that is explosive, twitchy, can bend around the edge and also potentially provide the front 7 with more explosiveness and versatility were 2 areas we were making a priority to add to the defense in the first three rounds, when both Ojulari and JOK fell into the 2nd round it would have been my main priority to find a way to move up and grab at least one of them. Like I said, it was flat out inexcusable and negligence on the front offices part to go into the draft with 2 GLARING holes that every team could see at RT and FS. Even if you love prospects there and want to take them, that's fine. But at both spots we literally had nothing. Even if you sign a guy like Beachum, Wagner, Dotson, etc at RT on a one or two year deal (or the equivalent of the guard pool if you want to play Good at RT) you at least keep your options open and force teams to consider your selection of a tackle as one of a few likely picks. 

I was very very happy with Moehrig in the 2nd. But if you asked me would I rather have Leatherwood, Moehrig, Deablo, and Koonce or Ojulari, Moehrig, and JOK with a guy like Demar Dotson starting at RT for a season and a 4th or 5th round pick with a high ceiling behind him, it's absolutely zero contest for me. Give me the guys that are the best athletes, prospects, with the best traits giving them a higher ceiling and their experience and production against good competition giving them also a higher floor and the ability to provide the team with something immediately. 

To get the best version of those players with similar traits that would fill similar roles should always be the goal. Obviously if JOK and Ojulari go in the 1st there is only so much you can do. But I would have taken Ojulari (because I would have had a stop gap signed on the OL) and then once Moehrig fell to me in the 2nd I make that selection, and once that pick is done I am on the phone with every team picking after me and using my 2 significant assets that can get me back into the 2nd to take the clearly superior, best in the entire draft prospect at that LB/S spot. Getting the extra pick or 2 it would have taken to get back into the 2nd sounds great. But when you end up taking a guy that profiles to the same type of player but less of a prospect and they ultimately end up needing a red shirt year before they may be able to contribute anything it just proves those assets weren't valuable enough to justify not giving them up to go get a bigger immediat impact player that also has a super high ceiling as well. 

Once again a lot of sense here. We all said it......don't go into the draft with glaring holes we have to fill.......it limits your strategy and every team knows what you need to do and are likely to do.

Even so, why didn't we trade down if we wanted Leatherwood, we could potentially still have gotten him and added a second or third round pick to help take one of the above mentioned guys as well. Happy we got Moehrig of course, that was great value and Hobbs has turned out to be a real gem but the value of the rest of the draft class is once again really questionable. Obviously we should wait for at least a season to appraise these guys but off the bat it looks like another missed opportunity or an opportunity that wasn't maximised to say the least.

[NYRaider]

10 minutes ago, Darbsk said:

Once again a lot of sense here. We all said it......don't go into the draft with glaring holes we have to fill.......it limits your strategy and every team knows what you need to do and are likely to do.

And that's what we've done every year with Grudock. In 2019 everyone knew that we needed an edge player, in 2020 everyone knew that we needed a WR/CB, and in 2021 everyone knew that we need an OT. 

[Mr Raider]

2 hours ago, Darbsk said:

Once again a lot of sense here. We all said it......don't go into the draft with glaring holes we have to fill.......it limits your strategy and every team knows what you need to do and are likely to do.

Even so, why didn't we trade down if we wanted Leatherwood, we could potentially still have gotten him and added a second or third round pick to help take one of the above mentioned guys as well. Happy we got Moehrig of course, that was great value and Hobbs has turned out to be a real gem but the value of the rest of the draft class is once again really questionable. Obviously we should wait for at least a season to appraise these guys but off the bat it looks like another missed opportunity or an opportunity that wasn't maximised to say the least.

Absolutely. As much as everyone here hated the Leatherwood selection I guarantee myself and everyone else would have been much more acceptable of him being the pick had we traded down and acquired more ammo. 

I'm all for people thinking outside the box, and believing in what you see and not always buying into what the masses say, but in a situation like the draft, even if you fall in love with a player that seems to be rated lower than what you see on tape, you still have to have an understanding on value. Everyone misses on draft picks, you have to live with that for even the best, not every team consistently reaches so massively. You would think with it still being a theme in the first round after a few years that at least one of the selections would have really hit to give the front office such confidence and commitment to keep doing it regardless of value and all of that, but that has yet to happen. Which only makes all of us more nervous and question their ability to not continue making the same mistakes in the future. 

[Darbsk]

5 hours ago, NYRaider said:

Sewell/Slater have both played well IIRC, but they're both playing LT. Don't a lot of guys say it's difficult to switch sides?

There was a really interesting interview posted on NFL General thread a few weeks back with a former OL coach of the Bengals who now works with draft prospects. He was basically saying that a lot of guys struggle switching sides, they struggle with the footwork, overthinking, just being a little slower to react and such. Also he said a lot of guys are stronger on one side of the body as they've practiced that way all their careers so when they switch it can lead to injuries ala Donald Penn. He also said Leatherwood would struggle as he's not fluid in his footwork and overthinking where he should be I believe. He may get there in time but right now he does seem to be struggling a lot. Wouldn't be such a big problem but our LG, OC and RG are also struggling. We could potentially hide or scheme around one but not all four.

[big_palooka]

59 minutes ago, Darbsk said:

There was a really interesting interview posted on NFL General thread a few weeks back with a former OL coach of the Bengals who now works with draft prospects. He was basically saying that a lot of guys struggle switching sides, they struggle with the footwork, overthinking, just being a little slower to react and such. Also he said a lot of guys are stronger on one side of the body as they've practiced that way all their careers so when they switch it can lead to injuries ala Donald Penn. He also said Leatherwood would struggle as he's not fluid in his footwork and overthinking where he should be I believe. He may get there in time but right now he does seem to be struggling a lot. Wouldn't be such a big problem but our LG, OC and RG are also struggling. We could potentially hide or scheme around one but not all four.

Veteran OT's have likened it as trying to learn to write with your opposite hand. 

[Jeremy408]

18 hours ago, Turnobili said:

i really wanted Ojulari. he was of my favorite overall prospects. i was very frustrated that we pigeoholed ourselves into going RT in round 1 because it skews the BPA approach too much. i was very pleased with moehrig i the 2nd. but when ojulari and JOK were both slipping, i thought we should have jumped again.

instead of JOK we got Deablo, who is kind of just a worse version of him... and Koonce, who has some interesting tape but clearly wasnt ready for NFL athletes. JOK is playing out of his mind right now and we are just hoping Deablo can kind of maybe enter the rotation of a banged up defense

The thing with JOK(and I said this back then) is that he was never gonna play over Littleton based on his contract. That why I understood Deablo from the jump.

Those 1st 2 rounds for them were always about who was gonna play

[Turnobili]

2 hours ago, Jeremy408 said:

The thing with JOK(and I said this back then) is that he was never gonna play over Littleton based on his contract. That why I understood Deablo from the jump.

Those 1st 2 rounds for them were always about who was gonna play

if he was better he would play. the raiders paid KJ Wright more than Perryman is getting, but Perryman is playing over him in nickel. nate hobbs won a starting job he wasnt supposed to. of JOK was balling out, he'd play. Kwit is getting paid more than Wright/Perryman but is a backup. 

Edited October 8, 2021 by Turnobili

[Jeremy408]

12 minutes ago, Turnobili said:

if he was better he would play. the raiders paid KJ Wright more than Perryman is getting, but Perryman is playing over him in nickel. nate hobbs won a starting job he wasnt supposed to. of JOK was balling out, he'd play. Kwit is getting paid more than Wright/Perryman but is a backup. 

I said this about a month ago that KJ wright and SLB don't play that much but everybody kept saying we absolutely needed him. And SLB no matter how good they are only plays about 20% of the snaps. 

Also there's a difference between Nate Hobbs winning at a position where the starter was both old wasn't good and it wasn't paid and JOK winning the position where the starter has had success in the league wasn't particularly old and was already paid (on top of his money being pushed back so we're going to still owe him a lot later on). The point is we needed a linebacker that wasn't going to start this year but was eventually going to replace him that's not some thing I put a first or second round value on and I'm glad they didn't either.

Kwit was picked for Paul Gunthers "scheme" so it's not a surprise that he's not starting

Edited October 8, 2021 by Jeremy408

[drfrey13]

25 minutes ago, Jeremy408 said:

I said this about a month ago that KJ wright and SLB don't play that much but everybody kept saying we absolutely needed him. And SLB no matter how good they are only plays about 20% of the snaps. 

Also there's a difference between Nate Hobbs winning at a position where the starter was both old wasn't good and it wasn't paid and JOK winning the position where the starter has had success in the league wasn't particularly old and was already paid (on top of his money being pushed back so we're going to still owe him a lot later on). The point is we needed a linebacker that wasn't going to start this year but was eventually going to replace him that's not some thing I put a first or second round value on and I'm glad they didn't either.

Kwit was picked for Paul Gunthers "scheme" so it's not a surprise that he's not starting

I said we needed Wright because he fills the need for a SLB but also do not need to take him off the field when you go down to 2 LBs.  If I knew Perryman was going to play this well then of course it makes Wright less of a need but you have to remember that Perryman last year only played 31% of the snaps with Bradley and the Chargers.  He has only played 40% + once in his career so he was seen as an early down back only.

[Turnobili]

30 minutes ago, Jeremy408 said:

I said this about a month ago that KJ wright and SLB don't play that much but everybody kept saying we absolutely needed him. And SLB no matter how good they are only plays about 20% of the snaps. 

Also there's a difference between Nate Hobbs winning at a position where the starter was both old wasn't good and it wasn't paid and JOK winning the position where the starter has had success in the league wasn't particularly old and was already paid (on top of his money being pushed back so we're going to still owe him a lot later on). The point is we needed a linebacker that wasn't going to start this year but was eventually going to replace him that's not some thing I put a first or second round value on and I'm glad they didn't either.

Kwit was picked for Paul Gunthers "scheme" so it's not a surprise that he's not starting

Littleton was picked for Guenther's scheme too

[Jeremy408]

2 minutes ago, Turnobili said:

Littleton was picked for Guenther's scheme too

Actually no there were reports that Gunther didn't want Littleton(around the time he actually got signed). Which would explain why he did so bad and Gunther "scheme" but is doing so well in Bradleys scheme

 

[drfrey13]

5 hours ago, Darbsk said:

There was a really interesting interview posted on NFL General thread a few weeks back with a former OL coach of the Bengals who now works with draft prospects. He was basically saying that a lot of guys struggle switching sides, they struggle with the footwork, overthinking, just being a little slower to react and such. Also he said a lot of guys are stronger on one side of the body as they've practiced that way all their careers so when they switch it can lead to injuries ala Donald Penn. He also said Leatherwood would struggle as he's not fluid in his footwork and overthinking where he should be I believe. He may get there in time but right now he does seem to be struggling a lot. Wouldn't be such a big problem but our LG, OC and RG are also struggling. We could potentially hide or scheme around one but not all four.

Please find it so we can email it to Cable.  I have brought up hose red flags as reasons why Cable is failing us.  He just does not get it.  Like Gruden his ego tells him that if they fit his measurements he can teach them.  It just does not work that way for everyone.  I thought Leatherwood carried less risk than Penn and Parker because he had at least played on the right side before but it was still a big risk moving a player to a position they have never been at and at the same time expecting them to transition to the NFL level.  You knew there was going to be issues.

[Jeremy408]

6 minutes ago, drfrey13 said:

I said we needed Wright because he fills the need for a SLB but also do not need to take him off the field when you go down to 2 LBs.  If I knew Perryman was going to play this well then of course it makes Wright less of a need but you have to remember that Perryman last year only played 31% of the snaps with Bradley and the Chargers.  He has only played 40% + once in his career so he was seen as an early down back only.

Wrights not a three down linebacker anymore. It was kind of a given that Perryman we're going to play given the fact that started for Bradley in LA(When he was healthy)

Edited October 8, 2021 by Jeremy408