Raiders Defense

[big_palooka]

4 hours ago, Darbsk said:

In principle that is a decent policy, however, I think for once DT needs to be sorted long term. We’ve not had a great DT in ages and constantly tried to patch up the position and so I think this should be a focus this year to finally get this problem position resolved.

I wouldn’t be against a big payday to a quality player who is still young, or a top draft pick as it’ll impact so many other positions. I’d go bargain basket shopping at LB, S, WR and OG and wouldn’t spend much there but DT is a position that right now is worth it IMO.

Really depends on price tag, but throwing potentially 20 mil a year at a DT who's not a Donald, Jones level player seems misguided in my view.

Draft, develop and find a 2nd tier FA at a better price. If the defense was one guy away, I'd think differently maybe, but they need 8-9 new starters. Wealth needs to be spread around. 

[NYRaider]

6 minutes ago, big_palooka said:

Really depends on price tag, but throwing potentially 20 mil a year at a DT who's not a Donald, Jones level player seems misguided in my view.

Draft, develop and find a 2nd tier FA at a better price. If the defense was one guy away, I'd think differently maybe, but they need 8-9 new starters. Wealth needs to be spread around. 

Scraping the bottom of the barrel with guys like Nichols, Farrell, etc. didn't work last year. You can kind of get away with it if your coach has a strong scheme like Gus Bradley but I'm not sure that Graham even knows what his scheme is at this point. 

[NYRaider]

4 hours ago, Darbsk said:

Yeh, I could see that. Add a top quality FA and maybe a day 2 pick with upside who’ll take a year or 18 months to develop, there’s plenty of options in this draft that need development but very few who could possibly come in day one and make an instant impact. 

I like Tuli in the second but I'm not sure he's an interior guy in the NFL. If we sign a quality FA (Payne/Tomlinson, etc) and bring back Billings/Tillery, I'm not sure we'd need to invest a draft pick into DT. We just took Neil Farrell Jr and Matthew Butler in the mid-rounds last year as developmental guys and also signed Adam Butler who was a productive rotational player in New England for years. 

[Darbsk]

9 hours ago, NYRaider said:

I like Tuli in the second but I'm not sure he's an interior guy in the NFL. If we sign a quality FA (Payne/Tomlinson, etc) and bring back Billings/Tillery, I'm not sure we'd need to invest a draft pick into DT. We just took Neil Farrell Jr and Matthew Butler in the mid-rounds last year as developmental guys and also signed Adam Butler who was a productive rotational player in New England for years. 

IMO I’d keep Tuli on the outside in base and move him around like a chess piece on other downs. He’s just so unusual given his build and how he plays.

The two rookies for me haven’t really shown anything at all so I wouldn’t bank on them doing anything and if they did it would be a bonus. Billings to me is a solid starting NT who can give a little push and Tillery is purely a rotation pass rushing DT to me. I’m not educated enough on Adam Butler to be able to project what he’ll bring.

I can only see one or two day one starting DTs in the draft, so if we take anyone else they’ll be rotation players I feel, so if we went that route we’d be waiting a year unless we pay a big ticket DT. I’m a defence guy so I’d probably double up anyway 😁😁

Unless there’s a potential starting QB sat at 7 I’d look to trade down and add two guys like Tuli and a CB like Witherspoon or Gonzalez then look again in the second or third round for a guy like Benton, Kancey, Roy or a DT in a similar vein. Of course, who knows who we’ll look at in FA which could shift that.

[NYRaider]

24 minutes ago, Darbsk said:

IMO I’d keep Tuli on the outside in base and move him around like a chess piece on other downs. He’s just so unusual given his build and how he plays.

The two rookies for me haven’t really shown anything at all so I wouldn’t bank on them doing anything and if they did it would be a bonus. Billings to me is a solid starting NT who can give a little push and Tillery is purely a rotation pass rushing DT to me. I’m not educated enough on Adam Butler to be able to project what he’ll bring.

I can only see one or two day one starting DTs in the draft, so if we take anyone else they’ll be rotation players I feel, so if we went that route we’d be waiting a year unless we pay a big ticket DT. I’m a defence guy so I’d probably double up anyway 😁😁

Unless there’s a potential starting QB sat at 7 I’d look to trade down and add two guys like Tuli and a CB like Witherspoon or Gonzalez then look again in the second or third round for a guy like Benton, Kancey, Roy or a DT in a similar vein. Of course, who knows who we’ll look at in FA which could shift that.

The only concern I have is if his lack of length/edge will make it difficult for him to rush from the outside in the NFL.

Neither of them played very much this season but I thought Farrell had a couple of good moments when he did get on the field. Both of them were mid-round picks a year ago and now they've had a year to work with NFL coaches/trainers, so wouldn't it be somewhat redundant to do the same thing again this year? Unless you just really don't believe that they can develop into at least rotational players. Doubling up for the second consecutive year with mid-round picks seems like it could be a waste of resources. 

Butler seems to be more of a 3-4 DE than a DT but he was a pretty consistent contributor for the Patriots. 

I agree about a trade down, if we do I'd be happy with Tuli, Breese, Witherspoon, Gonzalez, or Branch depending on where we land. 

Mazi Smith seems like a guy that Graham would like, 6'3" 337 and was Bruce Feldman's number one "freak" athlete for this years draft class. 

If we could sign someone like Dalvin Tomlinson and then spent our first two picks on Tyree Wilson and Mazi Smith we could really bolster our defensive line.

Edited February 8, 2023 by NYRaider

[Darbsk]

13 hours ago, big_palooka said:

Really depends on price tag, but throwing potentially 20 mil a year at a DT who's not a Donald, Jones level player seems misguided in my view.

Draft, develop and find a 2nd tier FA at a better price. If the defense was one guy away, I'd think differently maybe, but they need 8-9 new starters. Wealth needs to be spread around. 

Oh, I don’t think Payne is worth Donald or Chris Jones money but I just think we need to sort the DT position. We do need to still have value and we shouldn’t necessarily overpay but we need a quality starter in there not just a value guy who may have upside which is what we’ve been doing kinda unsuccessfully. Maybe the solution is the draft, but we’re then going to have to be patient for a year or two which doesn’t dovetail with our other players and contracts really.

[Ryno]

14 hours ago, big_palooka said:

Really depends on price tag, but throwing potentially 20 mil a year at a DT who's not a Donald, Jones level player seems misguided in my view.

Draft, develop and find a 2nd tier FA at a better price. If the defense was one guy away, I'd think differently maybe, but they need 8-9 new starters. Wealth needs to be spread around. 

28 minutes ago, Darbsk said:

Oh, I don’t think Payne is worth Donald or Chris Jones money but I just think we need to sort the DT position. We do need to still have value and we shouldn’t necessarily overpay but we need a quality starter in there not just a value guy who may have upside which is what we’ve been doing kinda unsuccessfully. Maybe the solution is the draft, but we’re then going to have to be patient for a year or two which doesn’t dovetail with our other players and contracts really.

100% this. The defense needs an impact player on the inside and I'd be fully behind them throwing money at a Daron Payne/Javon Hargrave calibre player. 

Agree with signing 2nd tier FAs at other positions to build the foundation, but the impact of an interior pass rush elevates players at all levels.

I don't think we'll be seeing 8 new starters on defense despite the need! I think a new interior DL, 2 new LBs, and maybe 2 in the secondary 🤔. I'm also happy to see Patrick Graham back just to have some continuity in the system... hopefully he can get the players he needs to make it work!

[drfrey13]

8 hours ago, NYRaider said:

The only concern I have is if his lack of length/edge will make it difficult for him to rush from the outside in the NFL.

Neither of them played very much this season but I thought Farrell had a couple of good moments when he did get on the field. Both of them were mid-round picks a year ago and now they've had a year to work with NFL coaches/trainers, so wouldn't it be somewhat redundant to do the same thing again this year? Unless you just really don't believe that they can develop into at least rotational players. Doubling up for the second consecutive year with mid-round picks seems like it could be a waste of resources. 

Butler seems to be more of a 3-4 DE than a DT but he was a pretty consistent contributor for the Patriots. 

I agree about a trade down, if we do I'd be happy with Tuli, Breese, Witherspoon, Gonzalez, or Branch depending on where we land. 

Mazi Smith seems like a guy that Graham would like, 6'3" 337 and was Bruce Feldman's number one "freak" athlete for this years draft class. 

If we could sign someone like Dalvin Tomlinson and then spent our first two picks on Tyree Wilson and Mazi Smith we could really bolster our defensive line.

Quite with the Mazi Smith talk.  He was a DT I was looking at on day 2.  Trying to keep this a secret.

[Darbsk]

8 hours ago, NYRaider said:

The only concern I have is if his lack of length/edge will make it difficult for him to rush from the outside in the NFL.

Neither of them played very much this season but I thought Farrell had a couple of good moments when he did get on the field. Both of them were mid-round picks a year ago and now they've had a year to work with NFL coaches/trainers, so wouldn't it be somewhat redundant to do the same thing again this year? Unless you just really don't believe that they can develop into at least rotational players. Doubling up for the second consecutive year with mid-round picks seems like it could be a waste of resources. 

Butler seems to be more of a 3-4 DE than a DT but he was a pretty consistent contributor for the Patriots. 

I agree about a trade down, if we do I'd be happy with Tuli, Breese, Witherspoon, Gonzalez, or Branch depending on where we land. 

Mazi Smith seems like a guy that Graham would like, 6'3" 337 and was Bruce Feldman's number one "freak" athlete for this years draft class. 

If we could sign someone like Dalvin Tomlinson and then spent our first two picks on Tyree Wilson and Mazi Smith we could really bolster our defensive line.

I don’t think Tuli will have any issues other than a lack of bend or out and out speed rush, he has awesome power and a nice spin move and is just so unusually agile, he holds the PoA well on film so I think it would complement our other ends tbh, plus I’d move him up and down the line like a chess piece and he’d learn behind Maxx and Chandler which is pretty good guys to sponge from.

With regard drafting more mid round DTs, It depends upon if you think they’ve shown real promise I guess. I haven’t seen much so it wouldn’t prevent me from drafting more mid round players. If one of them had shown promise like Hobbs or Renfrow or Crosby a few years back then obviously you’d not want to overuse draft capital and maybe they’ve shown something in training but at worst you’d just have three young DTs behind a big ticket FA and Billings and I’d always carry 5 DEs and 5 DTs (but that’s just me as I’d rotate frequently and try and use mismatches). I always come back to my own mock drafts where I was hesitant to do DLine after Lamar Houston or after PJ Hall or after Vanderdoes or after Maurice Hurst but I just think you keep drafting guys you think are going to be good and if you end up with a few good prospects then that is a good problem to have.

Mazi Smith I like too, but he’s an out and out NT type I think and I don’t think his pass rush will improve at the next level but Benton is the real sleeper for me, though after the Senior Bowl maybe some will wake up now unfortunately!!!

[101Raider]

Thinking about the DT spot, if we traded down, we could pair Siaka Ika with Calijah Cancey with significant extra capital to spare.

Gives us two rotational players that are premiere at what they do. 
 

[ronjon1990]

25 minutes ago, 101Raider said:

Thinking about the DT spot, if we traded down, we could pair Siaka Ika with Calijah Cancey with significant extra capital to spare.

Gives us two rotational players that are premiere at what they do. 
 

I like Ika for his size alone. If he can be just a good run stuffer that can disrupt the OL, it's a win. He's a guy destined to draw a ton of doubles. Takes heat off of our pass rushers or limits what an opposing O can do package-wise. 

Edited February 8, 2023 by ronjon1990

[NYRaider]

3 hours ago, drfrey13 said:

Quite with the Mazi Smith talk.  He was a DT I was looking at on day 2.  Trying to keep this a secret.

He's going to be a second round pick.

[NYRaider]

3 hours ago, Darbsk said:

I don’t think Tuli will have any issues other than a lack of bend or out and out speed rush, he has awesome power and a nice spin move and is just so unusually agile, he holds the PoA well on film so I think it would complement our other ends tbh, plus I’d move him up and down the line like a chess piece and he’d learn behind Maxx and Chandler which is pretty good guys to sponge from.

With regard drafting more mid round DTs, It depends upon if you think they’ve shown real promise I guess. I haven’t seen much so it wouldn’t prevent me from drafting more mid round players. If one of them had shown promise like Hobbs or Renfrow or Crosby a few years back then obviously you’d not want to overuse draft capital and maybe they’ve shown something in training but at worst you’d just have three young DTs behind a big ticket FA and Billings and I’d always carry 5 DEs and 5 DTs (but that’s just me as I’d rotate frequently and try and use mismatches). I always come back to my own mock drafts where I was hesitant to do DLine after Lamar Houston or after PJ Hall or after Vanderdoes or after Maurice Hurst but I just think you keep drafting guys you think are going to be good and if you end up with a few good prospects then that is a good problem to have.

Mazi Smith I like too, but he’s an out and out NT type I think and I don’t think his pass rush will improve at the next level but Benton is the real sleeper for me, though after the Senior Bowl maybe some will wake up now unfortunately!!!

Yeah Tuli is probably my #1 target at #38 followed by Dawand Jones and Drew Sanders, I think all three would be instant impact guys. 

There's only so many DTs that you can carry though and at some point you have to believe in your player development. You said you don't think they'd be ready to contribute in year one but then why wouldn't you just draft over them again the following year like you'd be doing with Farrell and Butler? I'd definitely be open to drafting and investing more into the trenches but I think at some point you also have to let guys develop. 

Mazi Smith fits with what Graham has liked on the DL in the past, so does Ika. He had his best season with Dalvin Tomlinson and Dexter Lawrence.

 

[NYRaider]

7 hours ago, Ryno said:

I don't think we'll be seeing 8 new starters on defense despite the need! I think a new interior DL, 2 new LBs, and maybe 2 in the secondary 🤔. I'm also happy to see Patrick Graham back just to have some continuity in the system... hopefully he can get the players he needs to make it work!

Agreed, I think there's a good chance Harmon, Ya-Sin, and Billings are resigned. So you can pencil those three in as starters along with Crosby, Jones, Hobbs, and Moehrig. Which brings you to 7 starters with slots to fill at DT, LB (x2), and CB.

[jimkelly02]

16 hours ago, Darbsk said:

Oh, I don’t think Payne is worth Donald or Chris Jones money but I just think we need to sort the DT position. We do need to still have value and we shouldn’t necessarily overpay but we need a quality starter in there not just a value guy who may have upside which is what we’ve been doing kinda unsuccessfully. Maybe the solution is the draft, but we’re then going to have to be patient for a year or two which doesn’t dovetail with our other players and contracts really.

Yeah, Payne is young (25y8.5m as of today) and definitely took a major jump in production as a pass rusher (11.5 sacks last year vs years of 5, 2,3,4.5 previously) and became more of a playmaker as a run defender by jumping his tackles for loss to 18 from 6,2,7,6.  
 

…. but the guy is playing on a DL of ALL first round picks: Sweat, Allen, Chase Young for only 3 games, plus quality and productive reserves.  When Payne is playing between Sweat and Allen it’s inevitable that he sees less double teams then he’ll see if he leaves for another team AND the widen rush lanes and pressure from team mates lead to him getting sacks that wouldn’t be sacks on a poor DL.

I think Payne will be a 6-9 sack guy but isn’t likely to repeat 11.5 sacks and highly unlikely to improve on that number.  You always over pay for top tier FA talent and it’s very rare it ever pays off.  You may get one great year but it almost never happens for all seasons of the deal.