Raiders Defense

[drfrey13]

9 hours ago, NYRaider said:

He's going to be a second round pick.

Yes a day 2 pick.  I was making a joke.

[Darbsk]

16 hours ago, NYRaider said:

Yeah Tuli is probably my #1 target at #38 followed by Dawand Jones and Drew Sanders, I think all three would be instant impact guys. 

There's only so many DTs that you can carry though and at some point you have to believe in your player development. You said you don't think they'd be ready to contribute in year one but then why wouldn't you just draft over them again the following year like you'd be doing with Farrell and Butler? I'd definitely be open to drafting and investing more into the trenches but I think at some point you also have to let guys develop. 

Mazi Smith fits with what Graham has liked on the DL in the past, so does Ika. He had his best season with Dalvin Tomlinson and Dexter Lawrence.

 

You're not wrong. Butler and Farrell Jr could make a big step up this year and I guess it's just based on what you see from them and I personally haven't seen anything really to say they'll be impactful. I'd probably only add one drafted DT if we added a FA so given that we'll probably be cutting Nicholls and Peko was useless that leaves you with (in this instance) Payne, Billings, Butler, Farrell Jr, Tillery, Adam Butler plus a rookie to battle it out.

Admittedly I don't know much about Adam Butler, and maybe the coaches have seen something in last years rookies but neither of those guys would stop me drafting a young man I think will be better. You could always try and stash one on the PS but a 4th and 5th round pick wouldn't stop me from drafting a guy like Kancey, Benton or Roy if they fell into a nice place of value in the draft.

So I guess in answer to your question, yes we do want to let players develop if we see significant upside in them and obviously neither of us are privy to seeing how these guys do behind closed doors, in practice etc. but I would not hesitate to draft the same position if I feel like a guy that has a much higher ceiling will fall there. Those three listed above to me at least, have a much higher ceiling than the two rookies from last year, looking at my notes. If Butler for example, had come in and had a couple sacks and looked very promising in a game or two then obviously I'd be thinking we should keep and develop the flashes and turn that potential to true talent. I just haven't seen anything from either guy really and they did play some snaps in the regular season and made basically no impact or a negative in the run game.  

[Darbsk]

9 hours ago, jimkelly02 said:

Yeah, Payne is young (25y8.5m as of today) and definitely took a major jump in production as a pass rusher (11.5 sacks last year vs years of 5, 2,3,4.5 previously) and became more of a playmaker as a run defender by jumping his tackles for loss to 18 from 6,2,7,6.  
 

…. but the guy is playing on a DL of ALL first round picks: Sweat, Allen, Chase Young for only 3 games, plus quality and productive reserves.  When Payne is playing between Sweat and Allen it’s inevitable that he sees less double teams then he’ll see if he leaves for another team AND the widen rush lanes and pressure from team mates lead to him getting sacks that wouldn’t be sacks on a poor DL.

I think Payne will be a 6-9 sack guy but isn’t likely to repeat 11.5 sacks and highly unlikely to improve on that number.  You always over pay for top tier FA talent and it’s very rare it ever pays off.  You may get one great year but it almost never happens for all seasons of the deal. 

Totally agree. You're overpaying as you're buying 'high' nearly always. You have to weigh the cost against what he can bring to the team as a whole and how else you'd generate that.

If you sign Payne you're not getting an elite pass rusher in the mould of Donald or Sapp or Fletcher Cox, what you are getting is a well rounded DT that is good against the run, can push the pocket, very strong and stout and will add half a dozen sacks as you say. Combine him with Big Boy Billings inside and that would be a formidable run defence front. It depends upon what you can get him for really. You would be buying 'high' which is not ideal but at least he's young and will play a full contract and make everyone on the Dline and LBs better. 

Funnily enough, this is  a quote from me in the BigBoard thread before the 2018 draft  :

Posted March 20, 2018

Really surprised by the lack of recognition Da'Ron Payne is getting here. I've only seen limited amounts of the top prospects admittedly but he jumps off the tape to me as a Pro Ready DT that can solidify the middle but also push the pocket and cause disruption there very much like Vea. His combine I thought was excellent for a man his size and while he'll be no Aaron Donald, we simply don't need him to be the focal point of the DL. It seems to me he is ideal to plug and play in the middle, generate pressure and collapse the pocket while not compromising the run defence and maybe getting 5 or 6 sacks. 

Edited February 9 by Darbsk

[NYRaider]

12 hours ago, Darbsk said:

You're not wrong. Butler and Farrell Jr could make a big step up this year and I guess it's just based on what you see from them and I personally haven't seen anything really to say they'll be impactful. I'd probably only add one drafted DT if we added a FA so given that we'll probably be cutting Nicholls and Peko was useless that leaves you with (in this instance) Payne, Billings, Butler, Farrell Jr, Tillery, Adam Butler plus a rookie to battle it out.

Admittedly I don't know much about Adam Butler, and maybe the coaches have seen something in last years rookies but neither of those guys would stop me drafting a young man I think will be better. You could always try and stash one on the PS but a 4th and 5th round pick wouldn't stop me from drafting a guy like Kancey, Benton or Roy if they fell into a nice place of value in the draft.

So I guess in answer to your question, yes we do want to let players develop if we see significant upside in them and obviously neither of us are privy to seeing how these guys do behind closed doors, in practice etc. but I would not hesitate to draft the same position if I feel like a guy that has a much higher ceiling will fall there. Those three listed above to me at least, have a much higher ceiling than the two rookies from last year, looking at my notes. If Butler for example, had come in and had a couple sacks and looked very promising in a game or two then obviously I'd be thinking we should keep and develop the flashes and turn that potential to true talent. I just haven't seen anything from either guy really and they did play some snaps in the regular season and made basically no impact or a negative in the run game.  

But it's kind of contradictory that you said we could take some fliers on guys that might not be able to contribute from day one but have potential. When we just drafted two guys that didn't really play but could have potential, the guys we'd draft this year would probably be in the same boat. 

I agree that you should never pass on a prospect if you think he can be a good player and/or better than other young guys on your roster. 

I'm personally hoping for us to sign someone like Dalvin Tomlinson, resign Billings / Tillery, and give at least Neil Farrell Jr a chance to earn some playing time. We could use one more pass rushing type in that unit though if Butler doesn't work out, maybe someone like Karl Brooks. 

I might prefer to try and sign a rotational pass rushing type over a DT in the middle rounds though if we don't land Murphy/Wilson in the 1st.

[Darbsk]

14 hours ago, NYRaider said:

But it's kind of contradictory that you said we could take some fliers on guys that might not be able to contribute from day one but have potential. When we just drafted two guys that didn't really play but could have potential, the guys we'd draft this year would probably be in the same boat. 

I agree that you should never pass on a prospect if you think he can be a good player and/or better than other young guys on your roster. 

I'm personally hoping for us to sign someone like Dalvin Tomlinson, resign Billings / Tillery, and give at least Neil Farrell Jr a chance to earn some playing time. We could use one more pass rushing type in that unit though if Butler doesn't work out, maybe someone like Karl Brooks. 

I might prefer to try and sign a rotational pass rushing type over a DT in the middle rounds though if we don't land Murphy/Wilson in the 1st.

I don’t really feel it’s contradictory tbh. I think last years rookies haven’t shown enough to be handed a roster spot. I’d bring in a young guy like those I’d mentioned above as I feel they all have more potential and could be better than last years rookies who have shown nothing (to me). Ultimately you keep the best one and be aware you might miss out on a slower developing guy who loses out in the numbers game. 

[raidr4life]

On 2/6/2023 at 1:03 PM, NYRaider said:

I wouldn't mind Breese but it would have to be with a trade down. Someone like Ika would be intriguing too if we signed Payne as a space eater in the middle that frees up the rest of the DL. Graham loves having big DL.

I also like bringing Key back to rotate with Jones I mean the DL looks super solid and affordable to me.

[raidr4life]

My 2023 starting defensive unit.

LE. Max Cosby

DT. Daron Payne(FA)

DT. Bryan Breece(DFT)

RE. Chandler Jones - Arden Key(FA)

WLB. Divine Deablo

MLB. Denzel Perryman(FA)

SLB. Kaden Ellis(FA)

LCB. James Bradberry(FA)

RCB. Rock Ya Sin(FA)

NCB. Nate Hobbs

FS. Trevor Moehrig 

SS. Vonn Bell(FA)

GM of the year 😉 

Edited February 11 by raidr4life

[big_palooka]

1 hour ago, raidr4life said:

My 2023 starting defensive unit.

LE. Max Cosby

DT. Daron Payne(FA)

DT. Bryan Breece(DFT)

RE. Chandler Jones - Arden Key(FA)

WLB. Divine Deablo

MLB. Denzel Perryman(FA)

SLB. Kaden Ellis(FA)

LCB. James Bradberry(FA)

RCB. Rock Ya Sin(FA)

FS. Trevor Moehrig 

SS. Vonn Bell(FA)

GM of the year 😉 

I wouldn't touch Breese personally. Deablo/Moehrig both kinda such and should be depth options. 

Payne likely doesn't hit FA. If he does, he's going to break the bank. 

[raidr4life]

3 hours ago, big_palooka said:

I wouldn't touch Breese personally. Deablo/Moehrig both kinda such and should be depth options. 

Payne likely doesn't hit FA. If he does, he's going to break the bank. 

Maybe it was a sophmore slump for Diablo and Moehrig anyway we can't fix it allbut some new blood at every level is a start.

[ronjon1990]

7 hours ago, raidr4life said:

Maybe it was a sophmore slump for Diablo and Moehrig anyway we can't fix it allbut some new blood at every level is a start.

Or, and hear me out, it could be that our DC sucks and brings guys down, who tend to rebound once he hits the road. 

Palooka won't agree because he' s a paid shill for the guy, but the history there is.....undeniable. 

We'll probably trade both soon to bring in "his guys", they'll go start elsewhere with success, and we'll continue to be the Pat Graham Bottom Rung Special 

[Chali21]

6 hours ago, ronjon1990 said:

Or, and hear me out, it could be that our DC sucks and brings guys down, who tend to rebound once he hits the road. 

Palooka won't agree because he' s a paid shill for the guy, but the history there is.....undeniable. 

We'll probably trade both soon to bring in "his guys", they'll go start elsewhere with success, and we'll continue to be the Pat Graham Bottom Rung Special 

Paid shill. Lol

 

This is the Raiders not Disney. 

[agarcia34]

If I am Ziegler I am looking at the two teams in the Super Bowl. Both are lead on defense by their DL. Impact players on the DL and dudes who can run behind them. 
 

Build the DL with players who can make things happen. Which can make up for the lack of talent at CB. 
 

I know I am in the minority on this one but I wouldn’t bring Denzel Perryman back. He’s been great for the price tag he was on. Best trade the Raiders have made in years but now you have to pay him it doesn’t seem worth it tbh. He didn’t look good. There are some FA options some very good ones TBH. That would be better fits. Plus he’s 30. Get younger and faster at the position. 
 

TJ Edwards from the Eagles is gonna be a FA

Germaine Pratt is gonna be a FA

David Long Jr is gonna be a FA

Younger faster options are available 

Edited February 11 by agarcia34

[Humble_Beast]

14 minutes ago, agarcia34 said:

If I am Ziegler I am looking at the two teams in the Super Bowl. Both are lead on defense by their DL. Impact players on the DL and dudes who can run behind them. 
 

Build the DL with players who can make things happen. Which can make up for the lack of talent at CB. 
 

I know I am in the minority on this one but I wouldn’t bring Denzel Perryman back. He’s been great for the price tag he was on. Best trade the Raiders have made in years but now you have to pay him it doesn’t seem worth it tbh. He didn’t look good. There are some FA options some very good ones TBH. That would be better fits. Plus he’s 30. Get younger and faster at the position. 
 

TJ Edwards from the Eagles is gonna be a FA

Germaine Pratt is gonna be a FA

David Long Jr is gonna be a FA

Younger faster options are available 

I agree with this, we need to spend free agent money on the trenches. What did Nick K and Littleton do with their big salaries? They sucked because the DL sucked. I would like to upgrade from Perryman but I don’t want to spend a lot on those LBS listed. I think those guys are going get paid big. If we could find a younger upgrade who is faster for a reasonable deal, I’ll be with it. If Perryman was cheap, I would bring him back in a 2 year. 

[NCOUGHMAN]

1 hour ago, agarcia34 said:

If I am Ziegler I am looking at the two teams in the Super Bowl. Both are lead on defense by their DL. Impact players on the DL and dudes who can run behind them. 
 

Build the DL with players who can make things happen. Which can make up for the lack of talent at CB. 
 

I know I am in the minority on this one but I wouldn’t bring Denzel Perryman back. He’s been great for the price tag he was on. Best trade the Raiders have made in years but now you have to pay him it doesn’t seem worth it tbh. He didn’t look good. There are some FA options some very good ones TBH. That would be better fits. Plus he’s 30. Get younger and faster at the position. 
 

TJ Edwards from the Eagles is gonna be a FA

Germaine Pratt is gonna be a FA

David Long Jr is gonna be a FA

Younger faster options are available 

Eagles are in the sb cause they drafted so dam well I saw a post where iirc 70% of their starters were drafted by Philly. 

[ronjon1990]

5 hours ago, Chali21 said:

Paid shill. Lol

 

This is the Raiders not Disney. 

Which is why I'm amazed so many people here believe in fantasy and magic.