Raiders Defense

[Dessie]

4 hours ago, Rolni said:

Just a nugget to the CB discussion

 

The notion Nate Hobbs wasn't good on the outside last year is clouded from the hand injury. Wasn't able to press which limits his whole play style

Prior to the injury (short period of time) he was allowing a 74.2 QBR, after the injury he allowed a 111.3 QBR

Yeah I said this earlier in the off season, let’s see what he’s like when he’s healthy. 

[Ryno]

8 hours ago, Rolni said:

Just a nugget to the CB discussion

 

The notion Nate Hobbs wasn't good on the outside last year is clouded from the hand injury. Wasn't able to press which limits his whole play style

Prior to the injury (short period of time) he was allowing a 74.2 QBR, after the injury he allowed a 111.3 QBR

Where did you get the stats for this out of curiosity? 

[Geezy]

my thing about Hobbs is he was so good at NCB his rookie year. Why change anything? NCB is a starting position nowadays and just as important imo. Have so many things broken on defense and tried to fix one of the few things working. 

[raidr4life]

1 hour ago, Geezy said:

my thing about Hobbs is he was so good at NCB his rookie year. Why change anything? NCB is a starting position nowadays and just as important imo. Have so many things broken on defense and tried to fix one of the few things working. 

Because we had nobody outside and I'm not so sure Hobbs won't remain outside, rumor is they really like Tyler Hall who had an 86.6 pff grade in the slot last season.

I can see Hobbs, Facyson, Hall as the starting trio maybe.

[Darbsk]

On 5/22/2023 at 6:50 PM, big_palooka said:

It's really all about development on defense. 

If guys like Hobbs, Moehrig, Deablo, Ferrell Jr. Palo-Moa, etc. take a step forward the defense will improve. Simple as that. 

Of course we want guys to develop but the problem is right now we have one, maybe two legitimate high quality starters in Crosby and Hobbs. Epps potentially could be good but I’m thinking guys who could conceivably be thought of as Pro Bowl or alternate type players.

Sure, one or two could improve certainly, but are they going to move the needle at all? Tyree Wilson might in fairness, but who else have we added that moves the needle? Baring in mind that this was not an average defence that just needs a player or two to flourish, this was legitimately a bottom 5 defence that needs a heck of a lot of work. 

I mean, great if Deablo becomes a solid LB and great if Ferrel can become an average NT but that wouldn’t make a jot of difference I don’t think as Perryman and Billings were better. If Moehrig improves is he going to be better than Harmon last year? I’m all for working with guys to improve and having patience with rookies and young players but we do need to add game changers as well IMO and they’ve been thin on the ground recently.

We need both improvement and talent additions IMHO or else it’s going to be a very slow process.

[Geezy]

59 minutes ago, raidr4life said:

Because we had nobody outside and I'm not so sure Hobbs won't remain outside, rumor is they really like Tyler Hall who had an 86.6 pff grade in the slot last season.

I can see Hobbs, Facyson, Hall as the starting trio maybe.

i think Hall has a chance, he looked good when they gave him an opportunity. 

[MrOaktown_56]

2 hours ago, raidr4life said:

Because we had nobody outside and I'm not so sure Hobbs won't remain outside, rumor is they really like Tyler Hall who had an 86.6 pff grade in the slot last season.

I can see Hobbs, Facyson, Hall as the starting trio maybe.

I think Shelley starts over Facyson. Played much better than he did last year. And I think by the end of the year, Bennett is starting over someone.

[big_palooka]

3 hours ago, Darbsk said:

Of course we want guys to develop but the problem is right now we have one, maybe two legitimate high quality starters in Crosby and Hobbs.

This is the result of poor drafting and development. You want better starters, draft and develop better. I think this group will get that done. Just won't be on the timeline this fanbase wants it done.

The game changers you want, you have to draft them and develop them. Or else you buy high from another team which is not the best thing to do in the Raiders situation. 

I think the defense will surprise people. They have a lot of plucky guys. And a lot of youth that will put in the work by all accounts. And honestly, if Wilson becomes who some project across from Crosby, that will change the trajectory of the defense in and of itself. 

[raidr4life]

3 hours ago, MrOaktown_56 said:

I think Shelley starts over Facyson. Played much better than he did last year. And I think by the end of the year, Bennett is starting over someone.

Ideally if it is a true open competition, but Facyson was one they signed in the first wave of FA along with Epps and Spillane, he got over $2Mil  compared to those other guys, and JMD said that they felt like they got 3 starters at different levels of the defense with those signings.

Edited May 24, 2023 by raidr4life

[MrOaktown_56]

1 minute ago, raidr4life said:

Ideally if it is a true open competition, but Facyson was one they signed in the first wave of FA along with Epps and Spillane, he got over $2Mil  compared to those other guys, and JMD said that they felt like they got 3 starters at different levels of the defense with those signings.

Shelley by all accounts was very good last year and was a PFF darling. I hope he wins the job.

[raidr4life]

19 minutes ago, MrOaktown_56 said:

Shelley by all accounts was very good last year and was a PFF darling. I hope he wins the job.

I agree may the best man win, I just think Facyson is their projected starter he also has the size they covet at 6'2. You know they want to justify paying him what they did. 2.8Mil to be exact.

Edited May 24, 2023 by raidr4life

[jimkelly02]

11 hours ago, Geezy said:

i think Hall has a chance, he looked good when they gave him an opportunity. 

I was very pleased with how Hall played.   He was solid in coverage and very aggressive in run support and had that nice sack in his first game (Denver).

Slot CB is a position where guys come out of nowhere and become solid players.  In the 7 games he played he Showed enough to have optimism he can be a solid Depth piece that plays 400ish snaps.

https://raiderswire.usatoday.com/2023/05/22/raiders-cb-tyler-hall-named-2023-breakout-candidate/

Sam Webb is another young CB that was a pleasant surprise last year.  

I understand trying Hobbs at outside CB and feel his hand injury didn’t give him a fair try.  I think I’d try him on the outside again.  

[Darbsk]

8 hours ago, big_palooka said:

This is the result of poor drafting and development. You want better starters, draft and develop better. I think this group will get that done. Just won't be on the timeline this fanbase wants it done.

The game changers you want, you have to draft them and develop them. Or else you buy high from another team which is not the best thing to do in the Raiders situation. 

I think the defense will surprise people. They have a lot of plucky guys. And a lot of youth that will put in the work by all accounts. And honestly, if Wilson becomes who some project across from Crosby, that will change the trajectory of the defense in and of itself. 

I don’t disagree with the basic premise at all. The trouble for me is we didn’t add any defensive rookies until round 4 last year and typically round 4 on are not projected starters and this year we’ve added Wilson and Young only in the top 3 rounds. Bennett could surprise for sure and Chris Smith I really liked but if that was the plan to draft and develop then we haven’t really added enough potential I don’t think.

Again, maybe a 5th or 6th rounder surprises, but that is a much lower chance than top of the draft guys statistically. Obviously, I hope all our guys develop but right now, realistically, I only see Wilson as a ‘draft and develop guy’ that has big potential. Young could be good for sure and Smith and Bennett have something to work with for sure. 

Over the last two years how many potential game changers have we added by FA or the draft? One maybe two if they work out? I feel like we’ve neglected the defence somewhat. I’m hoping for the best of cours, but that’s what it is for me, hope rather than expectation sadly.

[jimkelly02]

6 hours ago, raidr4life said:

I agree may the best man win, I just think Facyson is their projected starter he also has the size they covet at 6'2. You know they want to justify paying him what they did. 2.8Mil to be exact.

I think your right.  We paid Facyson 2.8m While Long and Shelley got paid half that if not slightly less.  That shows the team’s intent for him to be the starter. But I think it’ll be a competition. 

I think there are circumstantial issues outside of the players play in the preseason that will determine the starters at CB:

where Hobbs ends up (outside CB or slot).  If Hobbs is playing predominantly in the slot then Facyson’s size would be beneficial on the outside.  

If the offense only aligns 2 WRs then Hobbs will be playing outside on those downs, even if he’s playing predominantly in the slot.  Depending on the opponent’s WRs we could attempt to use the CB that best matches up.  Against a team like the Chargers with large WRs (Mike Williams, Keenan Allen, Quentin Johnson) Facyson’s size makes him a better matchup over Shelley.  But against a team with smaller WRs then
Shelley could be a better matchup.

That said… i think the “starters” at CB could change on a weekly basis and Facyson, Shelley, and Long will be rotated based upon “the hot hand” - whose playing the best recently and based on matchups.

[jimkelly02]

49 minutes ago, Darbsk said:

Over the last two years how many potential game changers have we added by FA or the draft? One maybe two if they work out? I feel like we’ve neglected the defence somewhat. I’m hoping for the best of cours, but that’s what it is for me, hope rather than expectation sadly.

One of the biggest issues with FA the last 2 years is the total lack of playmakers added on defense.

IMO Epps is a replacement level starter… a guy who your happy to have during the season but looking to upgrade from in the off-season.  He’s a run stuffing SS who is in the lower half of coverage kills amongst starters.  Spillane is a guy whose a pleasant surprise stepping in due to injury but a low level starter. Nichols underperformed last season.

Sure we’ve added some depth pieces on defense but none of them are guys are even close to playmakers.  I don’t think it’s a stretch to say if anyone of them got hurt on day 1 of OTAs and went out for the year we couldn’t replace them with one of the top FAs left on the market and not get the same level of production/play.