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🦅🤠 NFC East 🤷‍♂️🆘 | Celebrating the Cowboys' 28 Years of Sadness


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2 hours ago, Jroc04 said:

It’s only close because Dak was terrific his rookie year and Carson was average at best in his.  Neither of those years is indicative of what they are now though. Matts seems to think 2016 Dak is his baseline. It’s not. It’s the best season he’ll ever have. Convenient for my argument? Sure. But QBs are not what they are in their rookie years for their careers. For better or worse. 

Bottom line, Carson needs to be healthy to find the answer to the comparison. But if he doesn’t, there’s no contest. A healthy 10ish range QB is more valuable than a top tier talent that can’t stay healthy. A guy like that will give you a chance almost every year. But we’re talking value not talent. Where Wentz outshines Dak by a large margin. 

You want to cut out Daks rookie year, but you conveniently ignore he put up the same production to start his sophomore year and to end his 3rd year (after we finally got a decent WR). He has played at that same level for stretches every year he has been in the NFL. 

2 hours ago, Jroc04 said:

Morris being just as effective as Zeke in 2017 is a ridiculous statement by the way.

Firstly, my defense isn’t playing them the same. Zeke is a special talent. Morris is run of the mill. The whole defense changes against each one, respectively. 

Secondly, even against (most likely) softer defenses, Morris had like 2 decent-good games out of 6 he got starter volume. He had one touchdown the whole season. 1. While Zeke had about 7 decent-good games out of 10. With 9 TDs. 

Zeke had about 100 y/g and Morris was around 60 y/g  

How is that the same level effectiveness on any planet?

Interesting you’ll try and tear down Zeke to promote Dak. Zeke is a top tier RB. It’s ok to admit Zeke has a beneficiary effect on your QB. He would have one on any QB, as he should and clearly does. 

I was referring to YPC. They were both at the same YPC in 2017, Zeke just got more touches. 

And I "tear down" Zeke the same way I would any RB. The running game has almost 0 correlation to the passing game and wins. There is no statistical evidence the last 25 years that connects rushing to winning. 

On the other hand, after Smith went down, Dak's sack rate and pressure rate doubled. That does have a measurable effect on winning and QB performance. 

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I’m sure Dak’s statistics look good mirrored against a number of top QB’s in the game. He plays efficient, risk-free football. I think he’s a good player, I just don’t think he’s a Super Bowl winning caliber player in his current state. He’s this eras Alex Smith. You can certainly win with him, but the talent level around him has to be incredibly strong. 

Dallas (sans Frederick which I know is a big loss) was very healthy this year and they bottomed out in the divisional round. That’s what Dak will do - he’ll put up good stats, but he’s not going to push the Cowboys over the edge against the leagues elite teams. Can he in the future? Definitely - but he needs to improve his accuracy and feel pocket presence. Those are two instinctual traits that he hasn’t progressed in since being drafted 

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5 minutes ago, EaglesPeteC said:

Oh, look @Matts4313 stirred up another pointless Wentz vs Dak debate

PersonalMajorAustraliankelpie-small.gif

Meh, I took the hook. However, I honestly think he believed Wentz was better. He’s even said so. And then he John Nash’d himself into believing his own bull-ish. 

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30 minutes ago, Jroc04 said:

Meh, I took the hook. However, I honestly think he believed Wentz was better. He’s even said so. And then he John Nash’d himself into believing his own bull-ish. 

I do think Wentz is slightly better. But I think they are the same tier QB

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1 hour ago, Matts4313 said:

You want to cut out Daks rookie year, but you conveniently ignore he put up the same production to start his sophomore year and to end his 3rd year (after we finally got a decent WR). He has played at that same level for stretches every year he has been in the NFL. 

I was referring to YPC. They were both at the same YPC in 2017, Zeke just got more touches. 

And I "tear down" Zeke the same way I would any RB. The running game has almost 0 correlation to the passing game and wins. There is no statistical evidence the last 25 years that connects rushing to winning. 

On the other hand, after Smith went down, Dak's sack rate and pressure rate doubled. That does have a measurable effect on winning and QB performance. 

I don’t get it. So, we have to agree that each QB is playing in the utmost optimal environment to accurately assess them? What QB gets to have that? “We only count the stats he puts up while he’s in the absolute best position to accumulate them?” You said pick a stat, go ahead. And I said the last two football seasons. Which I think is fair. I think it most accurately represents what kind of player you are today. 

Spin it however you like, what you said was false. Morris was half the RB Zeke was in 2017. It wasn’t even close. Morris wasn’t to be feared in any way. Dont you think that made a difference in the way defenses played you? Zeke on the other hand had to be accounted for every snap. Morris has maybe one game of Zeke level production out of the 6 he started. 

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4 minutes ago, Matts4313 said:

I do think Wentz is slightly better. But I think they are the same tier QB

Yea, an acl tear recovering, broken back Carson Wentz is in the same tier. A healthy Carson Wentz is a level above. 

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And also @Matts4313, I quickly looked at the rushing stats for that year and the Cowboys were 8-3 when rushing for over 120 yards. 1-4 when they didn’t. And I think that’s pretty wide-spread.  Bulk rushing stats absolutely have some correlation in winning. 

2016- 11-0 / 2-3 

2017- 8-3 / 1-4

2018- 7-1 / 3-5

26-3 when over 120 / 6-12 when under 

Its pretty clear a good running game helps the Cowboys. Not that it’s only germane to the cowboys but I’d be curious to see the data. 

Edited by Jroc04
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14 minutes ago, Matts4313 said:

Nah. Dak has been as good/better than 2017 went too, aside from TDs

In what world?

The last two years:

CW : 24 G  16-8 w/l  265.4 y/g  65% comp

7.6 y/a  2.25 TD/g  .58 INT/g  102 Rat

DP: 32 G   19-13 w/l  225.3 y/g  65% comp

7.1 y/a  1.4 TD/g  .66 INT/g  91.9 Rat

Don’t understand how you see that, bruh. 

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1 hour ago, RBreezy said:

It's down voted into oblivion, so no, it's just 1 of Matts boys really. I genuinely cannot understand how this is even a debate. I don't think it is, I am convinced if you poll non-Eagles/Cowboys fans it would be overwhelmingly Wentz, and this is just a case of extreme homerism on the part of Cowboys fans, BUT, some of them are insistent enough that I at least let the thought creep in my head that maybe we are the ones being extreme homers.... Only time will tell, I remain fully confident people will look back in disbelief at the idea that people ever debated Dak vs Wentz, or Dak vs Goff, but we will just have to wait and see. 

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1 hour ago, Jroc04 said:

In what world?

The last two years:

CW : 24 G  16-8 w/l  265.4 y/g  65% comp

7.6 y/a  2.25 TD/g  .58 INT/g  102 Rat

DP: 32 G   19-13 w/l  225.3 y/g  65% comp

7.1 y/a  1.4 TD/g  .66 INT/g  91.9 Rat

Don’t understand how you see that, bruh. 

I wasnt clear, Dak has been as good as Wentz when he didnt have the literally worst ranked WR group  in the entire NFL (post Cooper).

And before you give me some "oh, Dak needs everything right" BS - reread what I said. The *LAST* ranked WR core in the *ENTIRE* NFL. And the 5th worst passblocking OL as well. 

Edited by Matts4313
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32 minutes ago, Matts4313 said:

I wasnt clear, Dak has been as good as Wentz when he didnt have the literally worst ranked WR group  in the entire NFL (post Cooper).

And before you give me some "oh, Dak needs everything right" BS - reread what I said. The *LAST* ranked WR core in the *ENTIRE* NFL. And the 5th worst passblocking OL as well. 

I’m honestly just curios as to what metric measures the abilities of a receiving corps and ranks them. Seemingly would be pretty arbitrary. 

Also, given the small sample size as to “perfect scenario” Dak, I’d imagine you wouldn’t be so willing to die on the hill. But fans are fans I suppose. 

Also, trying to be as honest as you can here, isn’t a good QB measured in how he wills his team when his team surrounding him isn’t all that good? It’s tough to compare to the greats but that’s the goal right? When your QB is good-great, he imposes his skills to elevate his team. Rodgers, Brady, Brees, Big Ben, Rivers, etc. All those guys have had a revolving door of skill players they’ve routinely made better. Not the opposite. Don’t you think that’s apart of being a good QB? Do you think any of them needed excuses as the ones presented? 

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