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Kilty =>  your opinion of Dak drives me nuts. I hate that you used trite, overused NFL tropes to down play him in light of factual evidence that supports the opposite. 

1 hour ago, Kiltman said:

And McNabb's was worse, and he didnt have the running game Zeke gives Dak

There is 25 years worth of evidence that the run game has no correlation to the pass game; at least in terms of efficiency (the important thing).

1 hour ago, Kiltman said:

Cole Beasley would've been a starter and his best reciever

That doesnt mean Daks receivers were good. They both had limitations. McNabb also had Westbrook and Staley who were pretty fantastic pass catchers + Andy Reid. Which is a HUGE. 

1 hour ago, Kiltman said:

*Winning games that matter.

All games matter. There are only 16 guaranteed. And even in the playoffs, Dak has been really good. Much better than just about any Eagles QB - - save the magical Foles run.

1 hour ago, Kiltman said:

Being the Pre-process Sixers is great if you have no aspirations for championships. But being stuck in the middle is really no better, and many ways worse, than just being at the bottom of the league. It's the purgatory the Cowboys have been in for a decade now.

This is short sided. The Cowboys transitioned from the oldest, most overpaid team in the league to the youngest playoff contenders with nearly $100M in cap space. We completely rebuilt our entire roster. 

1 hour ago, Kiltman said:

Signing Dak as is will only cement that in for another 5 years. Now if he improves that's a different story. The idea that he's garbage is usually just a joke, but the opinion that he has a flawed skillset isn't crazy. His basic safe style only takes you so far, he needs to elevate.

Every QB has flawed skills. Wentz is fragile and a poor decision maker. Dak is conservative. Rodgers doesnt protect his body. Brees is short and has a weak arm. Peyton came up small in big moments. Brady french kissed his son. 

None of them are perfect.

1 hour ago, Kiltman said:

He needs to get better to reach the opinion you have of him. 

I dont think I am that far off base. A lot of people lump Dak, Goff, Wentz, Mayfield and Newton all around each other in that 10-15 range. 

1 hour ago, Kiltman said:

He's right now probably the most reliable tier 3 guy at this point. There are guys who will spike over him a lot, and has exhibited more advanced play.
(Unless we are counting the "Dak statement game" against the garbage Giants in Week 17? Which was pure QB play if I've ever seen it)


Can definitely see a world where Dak finishes in the 10-12 spot this year. He has his blankey in Cooper, and if they sign Zeke all will be settled for him. He can Dak and Dunk til his hearts content. Goff, Rivers, Luck could regress from last year.

His first 24 games he was nearly top 10 in every stat. In his last 11 games he was nearly top 10 in every stat. In both scenarios he has a lot of top 5 stats. As long as our OL doesnt play like dog ish he should comfortably in the 8-12 range. 

Also "Dak and Dunk" is laughable with Check Down Carson on your team. Or did you miss the post early this year where Wentz was near the NFL lead in throws less than 5 yards. And that his QB rating plummeted (worse than Dak) on throws over 10 yards. 

1 hour ago, Kiltman said:

But they'll also play some tougher teams, mystery on Zeke could linger, some of those QBs in his tier might play to their higher ceiling. And even if he has a good Dak year, it pales compared to that.

Who the hell knows what these year 2/3 Qbs do, and these year 4 QBs have a big year ahead

The big thing to remember for Wentz/Dak/Goff...they are still youngish QBs. This should be the first year where they lose excuses. They’ve all shown a degree of talent. But it’s been inconsistent along the way in various ways.

Dak has been most consistently one thing, but his higher end falls short of the other two. Goff is a wildcard because of how much he relies on McVay. He has some low lows when that’s taken away from him, and is why I think he regresses this year. And Wentz “was an MVP”,  even last year played well (especially considering his back was an all year issue and he was less than a year removed from a knee injury). But that worry of injuries obviously scares you. They can go a lot of ways but still have something to prove.

True

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2 hours ago, Matts4313 said:
3 hours ago, Kiltman said:

And McNabb's was worse, and he didnt have the running game Zeke gives Dak

There is 25 years worth of evidence that the run game has no correlation to the pass game; at least in terms of efficiency (the important thing).

Huh? Having a run game compared to not really having much of one is kind of an undisputed plus right? Even if it's small

 

2 hours ago, Matts4313 said:
Quote

Cole Beasley would've been a starter and his best reciever

That doesnt mean Daks receivers were good. They both had limitations. McNabb also had Westbrook and Staley who were pretty fantastic pass catchers + Andy Reid. Which is a HUGE. 

They were much better and play in a time where it's even easier for them. McNabb didn't have Westbrook til the next phase of his career really. 2004 was when he really popped.
Undoubtedly Andy Reid is leaps beyond the Cowboys staff with creating offense. But the guys still have to catch the passes. And we lived through years of Pinkston alligator arms and the like. 

 

2 hours ago, Matts4313 said:
Quote

Being the Pre-process Sixers is great if you have no aspirations for championships. But being stuck in the middle is really no better, and many ways worse, than just being at the bottom of the league. It's the purgatory the Cowboys have been in for a decade now.

This is short sided. The Cowboys transitioned from the oldest, most overpaid team in the league to the youngest playoff contenders with nearly $100M in cap space. We completely rebuilt our entire roster. 

And they have filled out the team wonderfully, but it's about to be time to write checks. ANd if the Jones' decide to do what they do, they will overpay and keep too many of them. It will prevent them from having flexibility to add, and when a guy like say Dak fails to advance, it'll hurt them greatly. We already saw this last decade with a better QB in Romo. This middle limbo keeps coaches in the building who otherwise could be upgraded too. It's the exact opposite of short sided, it takes vision on more than the now. Something the cowboys have lacked for quite some time.

 

2 hours ago, Matts4313 said:
Quote

Signing Dak as is will only cement that in for another 5 years. Now if he improves that's a different story. The idea that he's garbage is usually just a joke, but the opinion that he has a flawed skillset isn't crazy. His basic safe style only takes you so far, he needs to elevate.

Every QB has flawed skills. Wentz is fragile and a poor decision maker. Dak is conservative. Rodgers doesnt protect his body. Brees is short and has a weak arm. Peyton came up small in big moments. Brady french kissed his son. 

None of them are perfect.

I agree they all do. But they all have their pros too. And that's where I find Dak lacking. Many other QBs have more cons than him.

 

2 hours ago, Matts4313 said:
Quote

He needs to get better to reach the opinion you have of him. 

I dont think I am that far off base. A lot of people lump Dak, Goff, Wentz, Mayfield and Newton all around each other in that 10-15 range. 

It's a weird top 17 QB list, some of it is hanging onto the past, a lot of it is projection. And some of it is very selective memory. It'll be fascinating to watch. 
It's crazy to me that the league collectively forgot home good Carson was two years ago. And are not also considering he since then...he now has another probowl level tight end in Goedert, a semblance of talent in the backfield with Howard/Sanders, more years with Nelly and Alshon (the latter lacked chemistry two years ago), and the best deep receiver in the league in Desean. But you also have Baker already top 8 some places. Just crazy

 

2 hours ago, Matts4313 said:
Quote

He's right now probably the most reliable tier 3 guy at this point. There are guys who will spike over him a lot, and has exhibited more advanced play.
(Unless we are counting the "Dak statement game" against the garbage Giants in Week 17? Which was pure QB play if I've ever seen it)


Can definitely see a world where Dak finishes in the 10-12 spot this year. He has his blankey in Cooper, and if they sign Zeke all will be settled for him. He can Dak and Dunk til his hearts content. Goff, Rivers, Luck could regress from last year.

His first 24 games he was nearly top 10 in every stat. In his last 11 games he was nearly top 10 in every stat. In both scenarios he has a lot of top 5 stats. As long as our OL doesnt play like dog ish he should comfortably in the 8-12 range. 

Also "Dak and Dunk" is laughable with Check Down Carson on your team. Or did you miss the post early this year where Wentz was near the NFL lead in throws less than 5 yards. And that his QB rating plummeted (worse than Dak) on throws over 10 yards. 

Dak and Dunk in the sense that he one reads and throws (safety scissors offense) We talked ad nauseum about it. It's not a real issue.

 

2 hours ago, Matts4313 said:

Kilty =>  your opinion of Dak drives me nuts. I hate that you used trite, overused NFL tropes to down play him in light of factual evidence that supports the opposite. 

this fuels me Mattsy, 💙

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46 minutes ago, Kiltman said:

 

Huh? Having a run game compared to not really having much of one is kind of an undisputed plus right? Even if it's small

Its statistically not relevant to QB performance. 

46 minutes ago, Kiltman said:

They were much better and play in a time where it's even easier for them. McNabb didn't have Westbrook til the next phase of his career really. 2004 was when he really popped.
Undoubtedly Andy Reid is leaps beyond the Cowboys staff with creating offense. But the guys still have to catch the passes. And we lived through years of Pinkston alligator arms and the like. 

 

And they have filled out the team wonderfully, but it's about to be time to write checks. ANd if the Jones' decide to do what they do, they will overpay and keep too many of them. It will prevent them from having flexibility to add, and when a guy like say Dak fails to advance, it'll hurt them greatly. We already saw this last decade with a better QB in Romo.

Not even remotely similar. Romo's career was wasted due to the Wade Phillips era screwing us draft and cap wise. 

46 minutes ago, Kiltman said:

This middle limbo keeps coaches in the building who otherwise could be upgraded too. It's the exact opposite of short sided, it takes vision on more than the now. Something the cowboys have lacked for quite some time.

We will see this year. There is a reason they havent extended Garrett. Though I hope he takes a role in our front office. 

46 minutes ago, Kiltman said:

I agree they all do. But they all have their pros too. And that's where I find Dak lacking. Many other QBs have more cons than him.

Agreed. Thats why Dak is better than all of them. 

46 minutes ago, Kiltman said:

It's a weird top 17 QB list, some of it is hanging onto the past, a lot of it is projection.

I wasny just referring to that one list. Ive seen Dak ranked anywhere from top 10 to 17 on various sites. Wentz and the others mentioned also have been in that ballpark. Just about everyone has them ranked fairly close together - - - aside from you eagles fans on this site. 

46 minutes ago, Kiltman said:

And some of it is very selective memory. It'll be fascinating to watch. 
It's crazy to me that the league collectively forgot home good Carson was two years ago.

Whats crazy is how bad you all overrate those 9 games. 

46 minutes ago, Kiltman said:

And are not also considering he since then...he now has another probowl level tight end in Goedert, a semblance of talent in the backfield with Howard/Sanders, more years with Nelly and Alshon (the latter lacked chemistry two years ago), and the best deep receiver in the league in Desean. But you also have Baker already top 8 some places. Just crazy

He is a product of his surrounding cast. 

46 minutes ago, Kiltman said:

Dak and Dunk in the sense that he one reads and throws (safety scissors offense) We talked ad nauseum about it. It's not a real issue.

He doesnt do that though.. no matter how much you say it.

46 minutes ago, Kiltman said:

this fuels me Mattsy, 💙

#ragequit

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3 hours ago, Matts4313 said:
Quote

And some of it is very selective memory. It'll be fascinating to watch. 
It's crazy to me that the league collectively forgot home good Carson was two years ago.

Whats crazy is how bad you all overrate those 9 games. 

Which 9 games? are you talking about?

 

3 hours ago, Matts4313 said:
Quote

And are not also considering he since then...he now has another probowl level tight end in Goedert, a semblance of talent in the backfield with Howard/Sanders, more years with Nelly and Alshon (the latter lacked chemistry two years ago), and the best deep receiver in the league in Desean. But you also have Baker already top 8 some places. Just crazy

He is a product of his surrounding cast. 

haha. But really just trying to keep a level playing field, if Dak's evaluation depends so much on teammates...have to include it with Carson
I'd rather go back to my original point all those years ago.

Watch a game, it's obvious Carson can do more. Don't even have to go to stats. 

3 hours ago, Matts4313 said:
Quote

Dak and Dunk in the sense that he one reads and throws (safety scissors offense) We talked ad nauseum about it. It's not a real issue.

He doesnt do that though.. no matter how much you say it.

A very oversimplified branding of his problems, but it's part of a larger issue with him. Which if I remember was addressed in this video.
The locking on guys came from watching him play, but obviously I dont watch all of them. 

 

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I loooooove how the narrative has changed when the tables flip. All of my Eagles fandom I’ve been told the Eagles, and in turn, me, have been losers. Never will win the big game. No rings. Perpetual losers. It didn’t matter the whole 21st century we’ve been one the most successful teams in the league. Multiple wins, playoff berths, divisions NFC Championship games, etc. But the big win was the only thing that mattered. Forced down our  throats for years, especially from our NCFE rivals. Now, success will be measured in “almost, close, sniffs of playoffs/SB”

 

G T F O

 

Edited by Jroc04
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23 hours ago, Matts4313 said:

Now the superbowl is the only game that matters? Do basically like 3 Eagles teams have ever played in a game that mattered in their entire history?

He isnt right. Its a ridiculous point to make a tired insult.

No, he wasnt trash for 3 quarters. And he equaled Rodgers, so he played way better than just "solid". 

Trust me when I say this, as a fan who’s suffered his entire life watching football, it’s the only thing that matters. Easy for a Dallas fan that basically gets born into 5 SBs.

(And that’s the gripe I have with Dallas fans about 38 and younger. You didnt understand the magnitude of SBs when once achieved. You were only a mere pup the last time they won. There’s no way a grown man’s joy is the same when he’s 10. When/if you win one, you’ll understand. It’s entirely different as an adult and for a person who puts in 30+ years of his life living football fandom. It’s like the value of a dollar. You just don’t get it as a kid until you put work in and realize how precious it can be.) 

Just look at all the greats, in any sport, that don’t win at least one. There’s a bar they just can’t overcome. There’s the “he was really good, but no championships” argument that trumps every time. Barkley was/is my favorite basketball player of all time. He’s never going to be considered a great of great because he couldn’t get a ring. Just law of the land. If Dak can’t get over the hump, he will literally be McNabb. A good player that left a lot on the table. It doesn’t matter how many times he wins the division or playoff games. It’s like consistently eating at the 2nd best restaurant in town. Really good food, and you’ll be mostly content , but you’ll always drive by that best restaurant and wonder what it’s like and it’ll always bother you. 

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24 minutes ago, Jroc04 said:

Trust me when I say this, as a fan who’s suffered his entire life watching football, it’s the only thing that matters. Easy for a Dallas fan that basically gets born into 5 SBs.

(And that’s the gripe I have with Dallas fans about 38 and younger. You didnt understand the magnitude of SBs when once achieved. You were only a mere pup the last time they won. There’s no way a grown man’s joy is the same when he’s 10. When/if you win one, you’ll understand. It’s entirely different as an adult and for a person who puts in 30+ years of his life living football fandom. It’s like the value of a dollar. You just don’t get it as a kid until you put work in and realize how precious it can be.) 

Just look at all the greats, in any sport, that don’t win at least one. There’s a bar they just can’t overcome. There’s the “he was really good, but no championships” argument that trumps every time. Barkley was/is my favorite basketball player of all time. He’s never going to be considered a great of great because he couldn’t get a ring. Just law of the land. If Dak can’t get over the hump, he will literally be McNabb. A good player that left a lot on the table. It doesn’t matter how many times he wins the division or playoff games. It’s like consistently eating at the 2nd best restaurant in town. Really good food, and you’ll be mostly content , but you’ll always drive by that best restaurant and wonder what it’s like and it’ll always bother you. 

You only have bragging rights so long as you still have players playing on your team that played in the big game. Giants fans lose theirs once Eli is cut.

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1 hour ago, Jroc04 said:

I loooooove how the narrative has changed when the tables flip. All of my Eagles fandom I’ve been told the Eagles, and in turn, me, have been losers. Never will win the big game. No rings. Perpetual losers. It didn’t matter the whole 21st century we’ve been one the most successful teams in the league. Multiple wins, playoff berths, divisions NFC Championship games, etc. But the big win was the only thing that mattered. Forced down our  throats for years, especially from our NCFE rivals. Now, success will be measured in “almost, close, sniffs of playoffs/SB”

 

G T F O

 

You sound like you are suffering from napoleon complex......

49 minutes ago, Jroc04 said:

Trust me when I say this, as a fan who’s suffered his entire life watching football, it’s the only thing that matters. Easy for a Dallas fan that basically gets born into 5 SBs.

(And that’s the gripe I have with Dallas fans about 38 and younger. You didnt understand the magnitude of SBs when once achieved. You were only a mere pup the last time they won. There’s no way a grown man’s joy is the same when he’s 10. When/if you win one, you’ll understand. It’s entirely different as an adult and for a person who puts in 30+ years of his life living football fandom. It’s like the value of a dollar. You just don’t get it as a kid until you put work in and realize how precious it can be.) 

Just look at all the greats, in any sport, that don’t win at least one. There’s a bar they just can’t overcome. There’s the “he was really good, but no championships” argument that trumps every time. Barkley was/is my favorite basketball player of all time. He’s never going to be considered a great of great because he couldn’t get a ring. Just law of the land. If Dak can’t get over the hump, he will literally be McNabb. A good player that left a lot on the table. It doesn’t matter how many times he wins the division or playoff games. It’s like consistently eating at the 2nd best restaurant in town. Really good food, and you’ll be mostly content , but you’ll always drive by that best restaurant and wonder what it’s like and it’ll always bother you. 

Same with Wentz amirite?

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4 minutes ago, RBreezy said:

@Jroc04 beautifuly put. Shed a tear reading those posts 

But seriously, great points and posts. Let’s keep parading Dak as a phenomenal QB because he can get out of the Wild Card round

Which is why we still get to claim the 90's! All hail king Garrett! 

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25 minutes ago, Matts4313 said:

You sound like you are suffering from napoleon complex......

Same with Wentz amirite?

As a fan, for sure we were the Napoleon of the division. It’s not necessarily little man syndrome. It’s not like we are a small market or something. It’s more little brother syndrome. But little brother grows up. And we’re in a growth spurt currently. It would be different if we were going to be forever the little man, then I could see the reference. The gripe is that we get this narrative thrown our way for my lifetime and once we get over the hill, no more narrative. Bull ish. Now, you deal with the narrative. The post SB cowboys have went through exactly what we’ve been going through. 

And yes, absolutely goes for Wentz. Even more so that the team won it without him with him actually on the team. He HAS to win to justify his career. 

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15 minutes ago, Jroc04 said:

And we’re in a growth spurt currently.

For the record, I 100% disagree with this. All your best players are going to be ~29 this season or older. You are in the mature stage of the lifecycle. Possibly even decline. 

And yes, Wentz maybe under 29 but he is in a 50 year olds body. 

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3 minutes ago, Matts4313 said:

For the record, I 100% disagree with this. All your best players are going to be ~29 this season or older. You are in the mature stage of the lifecycle. Possibly even decline. 

And yes, Wentz maybe under 29 but he is in a 50 year olds body. 

Except even last year coming off of his injury he was one of the more athletic QBs in the league.

Injury Prone =/= old.

You're looking at things too literally. Our culture, our organization, our modus operandi. That's what's in a growth spurt. Cowboys need to be reincarnated, only time will tell if that's truly going to be under Stephen Jones.

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6 minutes ago, Danger said:

Except even last year coming off of his injury he was one of the more athletic QBs in the league.

Injury Prone =/= old.

You're looking at things too literally. Our culture, our organization, our modus operandi. That's what's in a growth spurt. Cowboys need to be reincarnated, only time will tell if that's truly going to be under Stephen Jones.

The Cowboys have been reincarnated. How do you Eagles fans not see it? It blows my mind. The last ~5-7 years we have trimmed all the fat, changed our culture, changed our drafting philosophy, changed our FA philosophy. 

We are younger than you. 2 of the 3 last years weve been better than you. We have more cap space than you. We draft better than you. Are any of these points even debatable? 

 

PS => injuries and decreased performance come with age. Not sure there is any debate about that. 

PPS => The Eagles had the oldest roster in the NFL last year by snaps played (not average age).

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