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On 8/17/2019 at 10:16 AM, Kiltman said:


But also the checkdown thing isn't real Matt, as much as you try to make it a thing.

He was #1 in checkdowns (passes 5 yards - behind the LOS) in both volume and passer rating last year IIRC. His passer rating over 10 yards plummeted.Β 

Basically a noddle arm iyam.

Edited by Matts4313
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On 8/17/2019 at 10:31 AM, Danger said:

I don't think I've seen a poster on this sight talk more out of their butt than Matts when it comes to Dak. Is Skip Bayless your father? Do you sit down and eat breakfast with him every morning and talk Cowboys football?

You guys give me a run for my money. Are you all Shannon Sharpe?

22 hours ago, Art_Vandalay said:

I wouldn't say he talks out of his butt. Gotta give him some props for his commitment. But tΒ I've never seen someone so determined and obsessed to prove a point. It's been like two years of daily arguing for Dak.

I started towards the middle-endΒ of 2017 season, tbh. I jumped on the Falcons game broke Dak band-wagon really really early and havent left. I think the numbers back me up. I am right on this and Dak will prove it this year (hopefully).

PS - I still think he got concussed that game. Like the 5th sack, Clayborne launches, full-speed jumped,Β into the back of Daks noggin.Β 

19 hours ago, Gmen said:

Lost in all this Dak vs Wentz nonsense is that the NFCE has a new, much bigger problem to deal with - Danny Dimes -Β Carving up a defense near you. Coming soon.Β 

If we are being honest, Dak and Jones have been virtually perfect this preseason. Wentz is bottom of the East in every single stat. Worse than Haskins.Β 

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1 minute ago, Matts4313 said:

He was #1 in checkdowns (passes less than 5 yards) in both volume and passer rating last year. His passer rating over 10 yards plummeted.Β 

Basically a noddle arm iyam.

Like I said, he was near the tops of the league for throwing downfield, injuries and more specifically the lack of deep talent dropped him back into the 20s

Mike Wallace was supposed to be that guy and got hurt before Wentz even came back. They had Jordan Matthews as an outside guy late in the year, tells you about all you need to know.

Β 

He now has one of the best historically outside deep threats, with the talent underneath to get him 1on1s

Β 

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1 minute ago, Kiltman said:

Like I said, he was near the tops of the league for throwing downfield, injuries and more specifically the lack of deep talent dropped him back into the 20s

Mike Wallace was supposed to be that guy and got hurt before Wentz even came back. They had Jordan Matthews as an outside guy late in the year, tells you about all you need to know.

Β 

He now has one of the best historically outside deep threats, with the talent underneath to get him 1on1s

Β 

So what you are telling me is that Wentz (dak) does better when he has talent around him? And you are telling me that Wentz (Dak) fluky stretch that was historically awesome was infact repeatable?Β 

Its almost like the arguments for/against Wentz and Dak are interchangeable to a degree.Β 

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Just now, Art_Vandalay said:

My prediction: He'll still be considered middle of the pack (as he's widely considered now) and you'll continue begging people to believe you.

Beg?Β 

If by beg you mean "be a condescending arse, telling everyone their opinion is stupid and invalid" then that probably wont change. Assuming the Cooper and Smith injuries dont linger into the season, he is going to be a top 10 efficiency QB. And thats all that matters.Β 

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1 minute ago, Art_Vandalay said:

Oh how Cowboys fans expectations have dropped in the 21st century πŸ˜‚

Touche damn you. I meant in terms of the Dak discussion. Top 10 efficiency will be a top 10 season, because efficiency is all that matters for QBs.Β 

Obviously a superbowl is all that matters in the NFL.Β 

I walked right into that.Β 

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1 minute ago, Matts4313 said:

Touche damn you. I meant in terms of the Dak discussion. Top 10 efficiency will be a top 10 season, because efficiency is all that matters for QBs.Β 

Obviously a superbowl is all that matters in the NFL.Β 

I walked right into that.Β 

I know I'm being a d***. I've received crap from Cowboys fans for a long time so I gotta do it. Nothing personal 🀜🏼

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Just now, Matts4313 said:

So what you are telling me is that Wentz (dak) does better when he has talent around him? And you are telling me that Wentz (Dak) fluky stretch that was historically awesome was infact repeatable?Β 

Its almost like the arguments for/against Wentz and Dak are interchangeable to a degree.Β 

No, as a QB you can't do certain things if no player is there to do them

2017 -> Had a receiver(s) who could go downfield and catch his deep passesΒ 
2018 -> Did not have receivers who could get down field, also limited by the knee recovery and back..throwing on the move downfield being something he's good at

There is only so much elevating of talent you can do, especially if you are at like 70% at best,

Every QB is better with weapons around him. Kind of a no duh thing.Β 

Arguing against a QB being better with talent around himΒ is like arguing against a kid being better off with multiple meals in a day.

Some QBs can succeed well enough without giving them a lot, Dak needs to be catered to. It's fine, you can win still with that.
So he needs a rushing attack and simple play-calling to succeed. He's a hungry boy, just continue to give him what he needs to succeed and you guys can win.


Unfortunately this is where the salary cap is gonna bite, cost is going up...affording all that food for Husky Boy Dak isn't going to be sustainable.
Even if it is, you sunk a lot and could sink even more into the mostΒ perishable of goods, a RB.
Can he survive without it? Evidence hasn't instilled much confidence.

On the flipside Wentz elevated his 2017 receivers. Alshon and Ertz are solid to real good, and Ertz vaulted to a great season.
Nelly was resurrected from the grave into a quality wideout. Torrey Smith, Celek,Β Burton, Clement all got a boost.

The argument has always been, strip it all away...boot up a default team, where every position is of the level of Orlando Scandrick to Current day Randall Cobb.
Guys who have the skills for their positions, but they are just soso.
Wentz would go farther with that team than Dak would. Dak wouldn't elevate them and can't do as much. That was the argument from the getgo.
Β 

Arguing who is better and who is more efficient are two different things, they can be the same person.
Efficiency wins you regular season games, Dak hasn't proved he can achieve much beyond that.
Yes Carson has yet to play in the playoffs, but let's not pretend like Carson wouldnt have been better in the Falcons game in 2017 and the 2018 playoffs than Nick.
Β 

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2 minutes ago, Kiltman said:

So he needs a rushing attack and simple play-calling to succeed.

This is where you and I disagree completely.Β 

You think that the playcalling was simple because Dak cant do more. I think its because the coaches sucked arse. Romo, Dez, Beasely have also said the same since leaving. Aikman has said it during the broadcast. Its not Dak, its the coaching. Hopefully better under Moore.Β 

I also think the reliance on the rushing game has gone so overboard its become a detriment to the offense. So I dont think he "needs" that. He/we/the Cowboys need less of that.Β 

Β 

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5 minutes ago, Kiltman said:

The argument has always been, strip it all away...boot up a default team, where every position is of the level of Orlando Scandrick to Current day Randall Cobb.
Guys who have the skills for their positions, but they are just soso.
Wentz would go farther with that team than Dak would. Dak wouldn't elevate them and can't do as much. That was the argument from the getgo.

As for this part. This basically "IF we create a completely hypothetical scenario that can never be proven.. Wentz is better!". That is a silly argument.Β 

Quote

Efficiency wins you regular season games, Dak hasn't proved he can achieve much beyond that.

Brady is the model of the efficient QB. Manning is the model for the bulk QB. Which did better in the playoffs?

Quote

Yes Carson has yet to play in the playoffs, but let's not pretend like Carson wouldnt have been better in the Falcons game in 2017 and the 2018 playoffs than Nick.

We cant say that. Wentz has never played a playoff game. Or a win the division game. Or a win in your in game. Or a win "the last 2-3" and your in scenario.Β 

And Wentz has never played in a game where he was sacked 6 times from the same guy from the same side.Β 

So we dont know how Wentz would do. He has never done it.Β 

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1 minute ago, Matts4313 said:

This is where you and I disagree completely.Β 

You think that the playcalling was simple because Dak cant do more. I think its because the coaches sucked arse. Romo, Dez, Beasely have also said the same since leaving. Aikman has said it during the broadcast. Its not Dak, its the coaching. Hopefully better under Moore.Β 

I also think the reliance on the rushing game has gone so overboard its become a detriment to the offense. So I dont think he "needs" that. He/we/the Cowboys need less of that.Β 

Β 

We shall see, but it goes beyond that.

Ive watched where there are advanced concepts in there, and Dak doesn’t take the time or have the talent to take advantage. If Dak did he wouldn’t be in the β€œ260 yds for life” club that he captains.

he can certainly get coaching and development though. And honestly with how solid you guys have been drafting, if you could direct that towards impact positions, it could be fine.

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13 minutes ago, Matts4313 said:

Β 

22 minutes ago, Kiltman said:

The argument has always been, strip it all away...boot up a default team, where every position is of the level of Orlando Scandrick to Current day Randall Cobb.
Guys who have the skills for their positions, but they are just soso.
Wentz would go farther with that team than Dak would. Dak wouldn't elevate them and can't do as much. That was the argument from the getgo.

As for this part. This basically "IF we create a completely hypothetical scenario that can never be proven.. Wentz is better!". That is a silly argument

Β 

No it’s not, the argument is who is better, who is more talented. You strip all of their crutches away from them, Dak would fade faster. Even now with good players he barely cracks 300 yards, what’s he going to do when it’s all on him? Evidence has shown he maybe can’t?

Β 

16 minutes ago, Matts4313 said:
Quote

Efficiency wins you regular season games, Dak hasn't proved he can achieve much beyond that.

Brady is the model of the efficient QB. Manning is the model for the bulk QB. Which did better in the playoffs?

I like the framing to make Dak look good, but Brady has been so good at being a great QB that it’s efficient. It’s like saying a calico kitten is the same as a lion because they both have whiskers. Brady picks apart a defense, Dak routinely leaves 40+ plays on the field by not reading downfield. Efficient at taking care of your mistakes and efficient at taking advantage of your opportunities are also not the same.

21 minutes ago, Matts4313 said:
Quote

Yes Carson has yet to play in the playoffs, but let's not pretend like Carson wouldnt have been better in the Falcons game in 2017 and the 2018 playoffs than Nick.

We cant say that. Wentz has never played a playoff game. Or a win the division game. Or a win in your in game. Or a win "the last 2-3" and your in scenario.Β 

And Wentz has never played in a game where he was sacked 6 times from the same guy from the same side.Β 

So we dont know how Wentz would do. He has never done it.Β 

It’s more that Nick wasn’t that good those games, note I didn’t say he’d be better than Foles in the NFCCG or Super Bowl...he kinda maxed out those two games.

We’ve seen Carson do well in big games. He was playing great in the clinching Rams game. He was great in a big Carolina game earlier that year on the road on a Thursday night. He hasn’t had much opportunity though yes. We just don’t know. We do know Dak has yet to show he has the skills to really win big late in the year though.

We can throw out this one if you want, but I’d expect a magical change in Dak ushered in by the great Kellen Moore to equally have it’s brakes tapped to, until we see it.

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