tyler735 Posted January 17, 2019 Share Posted January 17, 2019 34 minutes ago, JustAnotherFan said: You're intentionally ignoring the point of my post and getting defensive for no reason whatsoever. For starters, I was showing why your example wasn't a good one as Thomas has done well against the Vikings in his past 2 games, so your example doesn't apply. It actually works against the main argument some have of Thomas not being a top tier WR as he has had multiple good games against a very talented Vikings secondary (beating some of the best coverage guys in the league). Sure your point was that he was cherry picking stats, but these points aren't that great in trying to argue Hopkins over Thomas: "3) Nuk has produced with or without a run game or a pass catcher in the field to take pressure off. 4) Nuk demands respect from DC's. Thomas does not. 5) Nuk can produce regardless who is throwing him the ball and regardless who covering him. Even against some of best coverage guys in the league." Michael Thomas has also produced just fine without a decent number 2 WR to take pressure off, we were without Ted Ginn for much of the season this year (Which means we had Keith Kirkwood, and Tre'Quan Smith as our other WR's). That didn't stop Thomas from putting up 200+ against the Rams in one of the biggest regular season matchups this season. Michael Thomas also demands plenty of respect from DC's. To say otherwise is laughable. Unless you can somehow prove DC's plan for Hopkins more than Thomas at this point, I fail to see how you can attempt to make this point. As another poster put it, Hopkins struggled when Osweiler was QB in 2016, which is to be expected, but still discredits the notion that he can still produce regardless of who is throwing to him as he had under 1,000 receiving yards (954 receiving yards- 29th best in the NFL) and 4 touchdowns that season. With better QB play, Hopkins has undoubtedly beat some of the best coverage guys in the league, but so has Michael Thomas. As I mentioned earlier in this thread, I still have AB, Julio, Hopkins, and Beckham slightly ahead of Thomas, but that gap is quickly closing with Thomas's performance this past season. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SmittyBacall Posted January 17, 2019 Share Posted January 17, 2019 Just now, JustAnotherFan said: Yes, that was my counterpoint. You said "he doesn't have the wheels" when talking Thomas which implies that he is not fast enough to get deep. Whetehr you meant this or not, I don't know, but the word "wheels" or phrase "a players wheels" usually mean just that. "Wheels" was in hindsight a poor choice of word. Regardless, I don't think Thomas has it in him athletically to do so. Or else it would be a part of his game. Which unless I'm incredibly ignorant to it, it isn't. Thomas is not a guy who is going to run by you. Hopkins can and will. He's proven that. Hopkins is quicker and can get on top of you faster. Thomas lacks that quickness and acceleration. He hasn't proven that he can. Should we penalize him as a receiver for that? Clearly, that is up for debate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SmittyBacall Posted January 17, 2019 Share Posted January 17, 2019 11 minutes ago, MookieMonstah said: Not going deep 8 times a game doesn't make him unable to do so. If you had Brees as your QB would you send your best weapon 30 yards down the field consistently? If so, you'd be a bad OC. I'm not going to get into it with you unless you read and respond to what I'm saying. 8 minutes ago, MookieMonstah said: I mean did you miss him roasting Peters for that game winning TD? He had catches over 20 yards 11 out of 17 games this season. That was a long TD, but isn't what is commonly classified as a deep ball. Peters wasn't even ready presnap, and he played the ball horribly wrong in the air. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SmittyBacall Posted January 17, 2019 Share Posted January 17, 2019 1 hour ago, ET80 said: 100% yes. He's not the fastest guy, but he's incredibly strong when going for the ball, has some great hands and is physical all through the play. He reminds me of a stronger Reggie Wayne. Reggie Wayne was a hell of a lot quicker. Thomas is more like Mo Sanu (which is sincerely not meant to be insulting). They move almost identically. Thick, long, physical, tough, smart receivers who love contact and plucks the ball. Though Thomas is a bit faster, and has much more reliable hands. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JAF-N72EX Posted January 17, 2019 Share Posted January 17, 2019 42 minutes ago, MookieMonstah said: Oh okay, so over a year ago in his first game of his sophomore season. Got it. Did it happen or not? Let's not start moving goal posts here. 39 minutes ago, tyler735 said: Michael Thomas has also produced just fine without a decent number 2 WR to take pressure off, we were without Ted Ginn for much of the season this year (Which means we had Keith Kirkwood, and Tre'Quan Smith as our other WR's). That didn't stop Thomas from putting up 200+ against the Rams in one of the biggest regular season matchups this season. While also still having a RB like Kamara in the backfiel which defenses have to account for -- something Nuk did not have for most of his career. 39 minutes ago, tyler735 said: Michael Thomas also demands plenty of respect from DC's. To say otherwise is laughable. Unless you can somehow prove DC's plan for Hopkins more than Thomas at this point, I fail to see how you can attempt to make this point. Between Houston's and Saints offenses......who has more moving parts that the defenses have to account for as a whole? Including the play callers? Brees, Kamara, Payton, I think it's both fair and safe to say that opposing DC's put much more emphasis on Nuk than they do anyone else on that offense and certainly much more than they do Thomas. 39 minutes ago, tyler735 said: As another poster put it, Hopkins struggled when Osweiler was QB in 2016, which is to be expected, but still discredits the notion that he can still produce regardless of who is throwing to him as he had under 1,000 receiving yards (954 receiving yards- 29th best in the NFL) and 4 touchdowns that season. With better QB play, Hopkins has undoubtedly beat some of the best coverage guys in the league, but so has Michael Thomas. One year does not erase the other 4 (I don't judge WR's in their rookie years). Again this is cherry picking. Which was the whole point to other guy and now you're doing it as well. Throughout Nuk's career he has Ryan FItzpatrick, Case Keenum, TJ Yates, Ryan Mallett, Brandon Weeden, Tom Savage, Brock Osweiler and a rookie QB all under center at some point playing in a BoB offense and has STILL produced. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GSUeagles14 Posted January 17, 2019 Share Posted January 17, 2019 28 minutes ago, MookieMonstah said: Julio isn't elite because of his inability to get open when the field is condensed. See how dumb that sounds? that only sounds dumb because it makes no sense. seems like youre talking about not getting into the endzone but weve seen him do that in the past and like most smart people expected,it was only a matter of time and he went on a tear the 2nd half of the season. and gow is a condensed field different than a drag or slant where you have multiple bodies around you? not many people are going to put him in the same league as elite wrs but you could at least make better arguments for him tbh. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tyler735 Posted January 17, 2019 Share Posted January 17, 2019 9 minutes ago, JustAnotherFan said: While also still having a RB like Kamara in the backfiel which defenses have to account for -- something Nuk did not have for most of his career. Then again as bleak as you make the Texans run game sound, they have been top 10 in rushing yards 3 times during Hopkins time in the NFL, top 5 one time in that span, and top 15 five out of six seasons while Hopkins has been there. Certainly not like the Texans haven't had a solid to good running attack going off of league average while Hopkins has been there. 9 minutes ago, JustAnotherFan said: Between Houston's and Saints offenses......who has more moving parts that the defenses have to account for as a whole? Including the play callers? Brees, Kamara, Payton, The Saints do. 9 minutes ago, JustAnotherFan said: I think it's both fair and safe to say that opposing DC's put much more emphasis on Nuk than they do anyone else on that offense and certainly much more than they do Thomas. Nope that isn't safe to say. Especially the past couple seasons with Watson, and also having a solid/good run game. I've never seen a defense worry about Brees keeping the ball and taking off for a 40+ yard touchdown, but I have seen Watson do this: 9 minutes ago, JustAnotherFan said: One year does not erase the other 4 (I don't judge WR's in their rookie years). So wouldn't that be cherry picking? 9 minutes ago, JustAnotherFan said: Again this is cherry picking. Which was the whole point to other guy and now you're doing it as well. Throughout Nuk's career he has Ryan FItzpatrick, Case Keenum, TJ Yates, Ryan Mallett, Brandon Weeden, Tom Savage, Brock Osweiler and a rookie QB all under center at some point playing in a BoB offense and has STILL produced. Sure he has played well with several different QB's, so have many top WR's. He has also struggled with bad QB's as well. Just because Thomas hasn't had to deal with another QB besides Brees doesn't mean he couldn't. Julio Jones, and AB haven't really dealt with many other QB's either during their career either, doesn't really seem like it is a talking point in any debate I've seen regarding where they rank. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jrry32 Posted January 17, 2019 Share Posted January 17, 2019 No. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MookieMonstah Posted January 17, 2019 Share Posted January 17, 2019 1 hour ago, SmittyBacall said: "Wheels" was in hindsight a poor choice of word. Regardless, I don't think Thomas has it in him athletically to do so. Or else it would be a part of his game. Which unless I'm incredibly ignorant to it, it isn't. Thomas is not a guy who is going to run by you. Hopkins can and will. He's proven that. Hopkins is quicker and can get on top of you faster. Thomas lacks that quickness and acceleration. He hasn't proven that he can. Should we penalize him as a receiver for that? Clearly, that is up for debate. This is honestly embarrassing. Thomas is an excellent route runner with arguably the best set of hands in the league. If the Saints can utilize him and his incredible YAC ability why wouldn’t they? Just because Thomas is elite at getting open on short-intermediate routes and uses his YAC ability to make big gains doesn’t mean he’s unable to beat guys deep. People using his speed to discredit him when he’s literally just as fast as most of the guys people have in their top 5. It’s a horrific argument. People will discredit MT because he plays in the Saints offense, it’s as simple as that. He’s just as talented as any WR in the league sans ODB, Julio and AB. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tom cody Posted January 17, 2019 Share Posted January 17, 2019 Option 2 for me. Having Brees as his QB helps, no doubt, but he's still a good WR and would play well, IMO, no matter his QB. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MookieMonstah Posted January 17, 2019 Share Posted January 17, 2019 53 minutes ago, JustAnotherFan said: Did it happen or not? Let's not start moving goal posts here. I'm moving goal posts when you're using a game from the 1st game of his 2nd year even though he's put up great numbers on that team twice since that game? Okay. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MookieMonstah Posted January 17, 2019 Share Posted January 17, 2019 46 minutes ago, GSUeagles14 said: that only sounds dumb because it makes no sense. seems like youre talking about not getting into the endzone but weve seen him do that in the past and like most smart people expected,it was only a matter of time and he went on a tear the 2nd half of the season. and gow is a condensed field different than a drag or slant where you have multiple bodies around you? not many people are going to put him in the same league as elite wrs but you could at least make better arguments for him tbh. It doesn't make sense because it doesn't fit your agenda. MT has gone deep and made plays plenty of times, he's good at it. His biggest strengths are his route running, catch radius, and hands. Those are best utilized between 5-20 yards, would you disagree? Why not put a guy in his best spots? Just because the Saints don't run MT vertical 12 times a game, doesn't mean he has the inability to do so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JAF-N72EX Posted January 17, 2019 Share Posted January 17, 2019 8 minutes ago, tyler735 said: Then again as bleak as you make the Texans run game sound, they have been top 10 in rushing yards 3 times during Hopkins time in the NFL, top 5 one time in that span, and top 15 five out of six seasons while Hopkins has been there. Certainly not like the Texans haven't had a solid to good running attack going off of league average while Hopkins has been there. Read back what I said. Quote 3) Nuk has produced with or without a run game or a pass catcher in the field to take pressure off. In games where the Texans running backs have not produced (both as a runner &/or as a receiver), Nuk has still produced. Meanwhile, Thomas has had Ingram/Kamara. 17 minutes ago, tyler735 said: Nope that isn't safe to say. Especially the past couple seasons with Watson, and also having a solid/good run game. I've never seen a defense worry about Brees keeping the ball and taking off for a 40+ yard touchdown, but I have seen Watson do this: And I've never seen a defense have to worry about a BOB and Watson led offense either. Again, this is cherry picking. Payton/Brees>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Anything Houston has had. No matter how slice it. Brees' pinpoint accuracy>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>a rookie QB and one coming off of an ACL. No matter how you slice it. 21 minutes ago, tyler735 said: Quote One year does not erase the other 4 (I don't judge WR's in their rookie years). So wouldn't that be cherry picking? No it is not. I made the statement that Nuk has produced no matter who was throwing him the ball. Your counter to that was cherry picking 1 single with Osweiler. MY counter to that was showing that he has indeed produced regardless of who is under center and that you cannot just use one season while ignoring the rest. Which is essentially what you were doing. 27 minutes ago, tyler735 said: Sure he has played well with several different QB's, so have many top WR's. He has also struggled with bad QB's as well. Just because Thomas hasn't had to deal with another QB besides Brees doesn't mean he couldn't. Julio Jones, and AB haven't really dealt with many other QB's either during their career either, doesn't really seem like it is a talking point in any debate I've seen regarding where they rank. Maybe he could. Maybe he couldn't. We don't know. So until we get to that point, all we can do is go on what we DO KNOW. And WR's like AB have to deal with OC's such as Haley and Arians who are no where near Payton's level as far as play-calling. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SmittyBacall Posted January 17, 2019 Share Posted January 17, 2019 41 minutes ago, MookieMonstah said: This is honestly embarrassing. Thomas is an excellent route runner with arguably the best set of hands in the league. If the Saints can utilize him and his incredible YAC ability why wouldn’t they? Just because Thomas is elite at getting open on short-intermediate routes and uses his YAC ability to make big gains doesn’t mean he’s unable to beat guys deep. People using his speed to discredit him when he’s literally just as fast as most of the guys people have in their top 5. It’s a horrific argument. People will discredit MT because he plays in the Saints offense, it’s as simple as that. He’s just as talented as any WR in the league sans ODB, Julio and AB. I regretted engaging you the first time. Now I'm regretting it even more the second time. Agree to disagree. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Magnifico Posted January 17, 2019 Share Posted January 17, 2019 I don't think he's top tier, but then I don't think Saints fan should see that as a disservice against him, theres a lot of WR talent, and OBJ, Diva Brown, Hopkins (as good as Watson is Nuk makes him look better on some real poor throws) and Julio ARE that good. I don't think Mike Evans and AJ Green are a whole tier better than him. Those 3, Tyreke Hill, Keenan Allen, Adam Thielen and others are of and around the same "tier"/ability. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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