SmittyBacall Posted January 17, 2019 Share Posted January 17, 2019 11 hours ago, Destructo Spin said: How does he benefit from the offense when the Saints #2 and #3 WRs for most of the season were fresh off the practice squad and they have no viable threat at TE? I think that offense would rank in the top third of the league with or without Michael Thomas. If you inserted a lesser receiver with a similar skill-set, like a Mo Sanu, I wouldn't envision a drastic drop off in the offenses production. They're too good in so many areas. Good offenses move the ball and rack up points (obviously.) So by this logic, Thomas benefits from playing in a system that garners him more opportunity for production. He's a part, albeit an integral part, of a well-rounded machine. 11 hours ago, Destructo Spin said: It's not like this dude is getting single coverage or free reign because the other team is worried about Keith Kirkwood and Austin Carr. Teams double cover or roll coverages to him basically every single snap. When I watch, I don't really see that though. Mainly because he operates the short/intermediate areas where double teaming isn't exactly practical. He's not a guy you necessarily need permanent safety help over the top for. It's hard to double a guy who specializes in fades, digs, and crossers. I'd be interested to see his target distribution, and any double team stats you could provide. I'm definitely not fixated on this, it's just what I see when I have the chance to watch the Saints. I agree there aren't really established wide receiver options beyond Thomas, and maybe Ginn, but you also need to consider the receiving ability of Kamara. The Saints offense as been RB heavy since the Pierre Thomas days. They work in the same offense in the shorter areas of the field. You would also need to consider the Saints run game, and how their presence and play-action perfectly complement Thomas' game over the middle behind the pinching linebackers. I don't think there's any denying he benefits from the system he plays in. Credit to the Saints, because he's a perfect match for what they do. And then there's that Brees fellow. He's pretty good at getting the ball to his guy. 11 hours ago, Destructo Spin said: Hard to say somebody who averages 107 catches a season through the first 3 years of his career is not a top WR no matter if his yardage numbers are on the lower side. I'm not really a huge stat guy. Stats are too indicative of situation, which varies when comparing players like this. I'd rather focus on the actual receiver to minimize the discrepancies in their offenses. Though, production no doubt has a slice in the pie that ranks receivers (or any position for that matter). 11 hours ago, Destructo Spin said: I could easily make the argument that 10 catches and 180 yards and 2 touchdowns is more valuable than 3 catches for 180 yards and 3 touchdowns, because time of possession is still a thing in the NFL (as we saw in the Eagles-Saints game this past weekend). Would you rather your WR have a higher YPC average? Or would you rather control the clock and therefore control the tempo of the game? I'd rather have a receiver that has the potential to do everything and threatens every level of the field, instead of having the receiver who specializes in fewer areas. I don't really care about their stat line. Those are my standards for 1A at least, and they could very well be flawed. I'm open to having my mind changed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MookieMonstah Posted January 17, 2019 Share Posted January 17, 2019 13 hours ago, SmittyBacall said: I'd say no. He's an elite possession guy who can dominate the short-intermediate areas, but isn't a legitimate deep threat. If you're going to be a ranked as a 1A, you need to do it all. He puts up 1A numbers, but hugely benefits from the offense he plays in, and the quarterback he plays with. He's like Mohamed Sanu on steroids. How isnt he a legitimate deep threat? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SmittyBacall Posted January 17, 2019 Share Posted January 17, 2019 7 minutes ago, MookieMonstah said: How isnt he a legitimate deep threat? He doesn't have the wheels. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GSUeagles14 Posted January 17, 2019 Share Posted January 17, 2019 1 hour ago, MookieMonstah said: How isnt he a legitimate deep threat? he has an adot of sub 8. what do you think that says? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MookieMonstah Posted January 17, 2019 Share Posted January 17, 2019 1 hour ago, SmittyBacall said: He doesn't have the wheels. He’s 1/10th of a second slower than Antonio Brown. Can you imagine thinking a guy can’t be a deep threat because in a 40 yard sprint a guy finished 1/10th of a second slower than another guy? I love this site. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MookieMonstah Posted January 17, 2019 Share Posted January 17, 2019 12 minutes ago, GSUeagles14 said: he has an adot of sub 8. what do you think that says? It tells me everyone in the world knows Brees has no deep ball and that Thomas is at his best torching people in intermediate routes. That tells me nothing about his ability to be a deep threat. I’d love an explanation on how a big, fast, upper echelon route runner with absolute money hands can’t be a deep threat. If you come back with a 40 yard dash time I’m not going to bother responding, just a heads up. So much more that goes into being a deep threat than a 40 yard dash. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tyler735 Posted January 17, 2019 Share Posted January 17, 2019 Crazy that Cris Carter was one of the best WR's of all time, but was far from a deep threat. In a lot of ways Thomas's game resembles Carter's (obviously doesn't have the career numbers of Carter, but just his style of playing the game is fairly similar). I also don't recall Fitzgerald being the fastest guy or best deep threat. In 10 of Fitzgerald's 15 seasons he didn't have a catch over 50 yards. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JAF-N72EX Posted January 17, 2019 Share Posted January 17, 2019 51 minutes ago, SmittyBacall said: He doesn't have the wheels. His 4.57 40 time says otherwise and Nuk would like a word with you as well. Speeds is not everything. You can't just disqualify a guy from being considered a deep threat all because he doesn't run a 4.3. 2 hours ago, SmittyBacall said: I'd rather have a receiver that has the potential to do everything and threaten everywhere, instead of having the receiver who specializes in fewer areas. Then I would question your standards because if that were the case then Julio doesn't belong in the tier 1 either by your criteria because he cannot get separation in closed quarters at a high rate. You don't necessarily have to be elite at every single aspect to be considered a top receiver. A player could be considered below average in one aspect but the very best at another. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JAF-N72EX Posted January 17, 2019 Share Posted January 17, 2019 No, Thomas does not belong in this discussion. Tier in, imo, is reserved only for AB, Julio, OBJ, Nuk and AJ. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MookieMonstah Posted January 17, 2019 Share Posted January 17, 2019 3 minutes ago, JustAnotherFan said: No, Thomas does not belong in this discussion. Tier in, imo, is reserved only for AB, Julio, OBJ, Nuk and AJ. I just fail to see what Hopkins does that MT doesn’t. Earlier in the season I agreed with this stance but I think MT has put himself as the 6th man in that group. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tyler735 Posted January 17, 2019 Share Posted January 17, 2019 Top WR 40 times: Antonio Brown- 4.57 Deandre Hopkins- 4.57 Julio Jones- 4.42 Odell Beckham- 4.43 Michael Thomas- 4.57 All times according to NFL Draft Scout. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ET80 Posted January 17, 2019 Share Posted January 17, 2019 100% yes. He's not the fastest guy, but he's incredibly strong when going for the ball, has some great hands and is physical all through the play. He reminds me of a stronger Reggie Wayne. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JAF-N72EX Posted January 17, 2019 Share Posted January 17, 2019 18 minutes ago, MookieMonstah said: I just fail to see what Hopkins does that MT doesn’t. Earlier in the season I agreed with this stance but I think MT has put himself as the 6th man in that group. 1) Payton's offense>>>>>>>>>anything Nuk has ever had. 2) Brees (the most accurate passer in the lead who rarely leaves his guys out to dry)>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>anything Nuk has ever had 3) Nuk has produced with or without a run game or a pass catcher in the field to take pressure off. 4) Nuk demands respect from DC's. Thomas does not. 5) Nuk can produce regardless who is throwing him the ball and regardless who covering him. Even against some of best coverage guys in the league. ^ And can do this on a consistent basis. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MookieMonstah Posted January 17, 2019 Share Posted January 17, 2019 6 minutes ago, JustAnotherFan said: 1) Payton's offense>>>>>>>>>anything Nuk has ever had. 2) Brees (the most accurate passer in the lead who rarely leaves his guys out to dry)>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>anything Nuk has ever had 3) Nuk has produced with or without a run game or a pass catcher in the field to take pressure off. 4) Nuk demands respect from DC's. Thomas does not. 5) Nuk can produce regardless who is throwing him the ball and regardless who covering him. Even against some of best coverage guys in the league. ^ And can do this on a consistent basis. I was with you until DC don’t respect MT. That’s a crock of bologna. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MookieMonstah Posted January 17, 2019 Share Posted January 17, 2019 Also, Hopkins struggled mightily with the corpse of Pick6 King. As anyone would, just pointing it out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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