Jump to content
Sign in to follow this  
warfelg

2018 defensive breakdown

Recommended Posts

6 minutes ago, warfelg said:

How do you come to that conclusion? Because it’s pretty much the opposite. Corner blitz requires the edge to gap control to open up the CB lane. Fire Blitz (any A or B gap blitz) requires the DT/DE (3-4) to 2-gap and ensure a clean lane. 

The way its blocked is the way Im assuming it and I wont say my conclusion isn't wrong. 5/6 man blocking vs 4/5 man rushing. Adding an additional rusher (assuming he didnt raise his hand and announce his pressure) causes numbers issues. Blocking is usually only going to have 1 additional blocker, my thoughts are if the CB goes, I *should* be singled up at OLB and CB, creating better rush opportunities. If I send an additional guy up the middle, I *should* have one on one opportunities with my DL. If I know its coming I an account for it, but if you rush 4 and send the 5th from anywhere, its hard to set up prior too. 

Again, wont say I'm not wrong. But speaking from the other side of the football -- pressure seems to win where you bring it and thats where my assumption comes from. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Correct, but usually the extra rusher is the benefactor, not the expected rusher.  OLB/DE/DT is the expected rusher, ILB/SS/CB is not the expected rusher.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 minutes ago, warfelg said:

Correct, but usually the extra rusher is the benefactor, not the expected rusher.  OLB/DE/DT is the expected rusher, ILB/SS/CB is not the expected rusher.

I get that, but I would still think that the known rusher is in a more advantageous position than if the rusher does not come from that area. A Hilton free blitz can put a OT at a decision, or cause a switch to a late free guard, freeing up TJ. Running backs can’t help the OTs or else their QB gets it in the teeth. 

We want 1 on 1 opportunities. I just imagine that extra blitzer creates that. I don’t expect free rushes. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
34 minutes ago, Dcash4 said:

I get that, but I would still think that the known rusher is in a more advantageous position than if the rusher does not come from that area. A Hilton free blitz can put a OT at a decision, or cause a switch to a late free guard, freeing up TJ. Running backs can’t help the OTs or else their QB gets it in the teeth. 

We want 1 on 1 opportunities. I just imagine that extra blitzer creates that. I don’t expect free rushes. 

No, I'm sorry you don't blitz for a 1-on-1.  That's stupid.  Offenses always take it as a win if they get a hat on a hat.  You blitz and create extra man rush opportunities to get a free rusher in there.  And every defensive and offensive guy will tell you that.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
32 minutes ago, warfelg said:

No, I'm sorry you don't blitz for a 1-on-1.  That's stupid.  Offenses always take it as a win if they get a hat on a hat.  You blitz and create extra man rush opportunities to get a free rusher in there.  And every defensive and offensive guy will tell you that.

....i never said that it was. Blitzing is not the sole purpose of it, but single blocking is a by product of blitzing, which is ultimately a benefit to good rushers. I don’t want Heyward doubled. I don’t want a back to help on TJ. Blitzing helps creating mismatches and miscommunications. Those things help rushers. 

Its the NFL, I don’t know too many teams that take it as a win to get hat on hat against Von Miller. The NFL is a singled up world that involves strategic doubling of key players. Creating one on ones for your best players is essential. Blitzing HELPS to do that, but that’s not the only reason why you do it. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yes, the intent of the blitz is to overload the offensive line on either numbers, or communication.  But it's intent is not a bunch of one on one matchups.  The intent is to spring free a rusher, typically the one you are sending extra.  It does not benefit the better pass rusher, it benefits the player the blitz is designed to spring. 

When designing a blitz for my defense, I don't go with the idea that even though my DT is better than my ILB, I'm blitzing my ILB to free up my DT.  I go with the idea that they are going to focus on my DT, and it exposes a weakness on their line that I can exploit by sending the ILB into the space that the extra blocker should be in.

 

This article is on a single type of blitz, and it's intentions, but it's all designed to open up a free rusher:

https://steelersdepot.com/2018/08/film-room-anthony-chickillo-breaks-the-pass-rush-rules/

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I understand design and intent, and the rules the defender are following....but offenses have the same rules to counter the problem. Those 3 clips the offense actually handles all of them - the back just fails them in one. 

Thats my point on one on one situations. The offenses are good at the NFL level at cleaning up, but the thing you can’t continually rely on is defending one on one against good players. 

If your telling me that doesn’t matter on blitzes so be it. I’ll take your background on the matter. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I disagree that the offenses handled it fine in all 3.  They did in the first one because Chick didn't do his job.  In 2, even with a good block from the RB, the Browns offense was thrown off pace because of it.  In the last one showing the Vikings, Keenum got rid of it really fast or that would have been another sack otherwise.

Offenses can be good at cleaning it up if they see it coming.  If they don't, it's very easy to get home with a free rusher.

Take the Ravens cover-0 look for example.  8 guys in the box on the LOS.  It's still a traditional fire blitz or corner blitz, but because of they way they disguise the blitz, the offense has to account for the fact that any of them can be the rusher.  Sometimes none of them are and the DL breaks free.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Ill Disagree with your disagreement 😉

maybe it’s just offensive eyes vs defensive ones. The first play they have two guys to take care of two blitzers. I’ll take that as a win, even you mentioned hat on hat. 

Second one is a running back fail. Running back has the free blitzer, slide perfectly to him, is in great position.....and absolutely sucks at blocking. I mean, seriously...that’s a terrible attempt at blocking.

Third, to me, looks like The Qb either saw he had the coverage he needed or saw the blitz wouldn’t effect him. He could have easily slid protection against the strong side if needed. 2 of his 3 interior linemen end up with no one to hit and are uncovered at snap. They easily have numbers on the blitz.

Your ravens example is the extreme end of the scale. 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Dcash4 said:

The first play they have two guys to take care of two blitzers

It's actually 1 blitzer. ;) It's not a blitz until your surpass that standard rush of 4.  So in that one Williams, Chick, Tuitt, Heyward are that standard rush, Haden is the blitzer.  And blocking scheme wise it's a hat on a hat, but in terms of play design, you see it in the later ones, Williams/Dupree took the OT, Chick took the OG, Tuitt took the OC/OG double, and Heyward took the OT/TE.  So two guys took the doubles, based on how they lined up, and Chick is supposed to straight up 2T the OG to give the lane.

 

I don't have GIF evidence on this one yet, but I'm working on it, but the Fire Zone Blitz - we see it as the VWill blitz. At address we see and alignment of:

Offense

OT  -  OG  -  OC  -  OG  - OT  -  TE

Watt    -    Tuitt    -   Heyward -   Dupree

Bostic    -    Williams

DEFENSE

So at the snap, in this blitz (which is a common alignment for us), Watt and Dupree are to occupy the edges and contain.  So Watt and Dupree are to get depth, not turn the corner, and drag the OT and TE/RB (whoever is on that side) about 7-8 yards deep off the line.  Next Tuitt and Heyward are to take the center of the line.  Tuitt is to attack the A-Gap of the OG and the OC.  He's supposed to use his length to push that spot and drag the blocks into him.  Heyward is to sit as well, take the OG and OT with him out od the B-Gap, opening up the blind side A-Gap.  So now we got an open gap, contain, and a free rusher because everyone attacked the right assignments.

This one can fall apart multiple ways.  1 - obviously there are more blockers than rushers.  If the OT decides to go with the edge rusher because the TE/RB are on a route, or the decide to double on that side, they could peel off the alter Williams blitz.  2 - Tuitt and/or Heyward don't take their gap assignment right.  3 - Tuitt/Heyward don't push the line wide enough for Williams to get clean.  4 - and this one is the key, the edge guys don't contain.  

Right so let's say the TE is on a route and it's a 5 man protect.  From an offensive view you have the win.  I'm bringing 5, you kept 5.  But if I have Heyward 2-gap holding, Dupree containing, Watt containing, both with 2 gap responsibilities, and Tuitt is 1-gap double holding; you lost the matchup despite a hat on a hat.  

So you say you think that improves that chances for Heyward to pass rush and get a pressure, but if he fit that on this play, unless he just blows the OG off the line, he didn't do the job that was required on that play.  Williams rushing didn't benefit Heyward at all on that play.  Heywards assignment 100% benefited Williams though.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
12 hours ago, warfelg said:

Right so let's say the TE is on a route and it's a 5 man protect.  From an offensive view you have the win.  I'm bringing 5, you kept 5.  But if I have Heyward 2-gap holding, Dupree containing, Watt containing, both with 2 gap responsibilities, and Tuitt is 1-gap double holding; you lost the matchup despite a hat on a hat.

But this is the stuff I don’t like when we talk about “the rules”. Because the “rules” of the offense, on paper...match. 

The defensive rules, on paper, should stop the offense every time. The offensive rules, on paper, should score a td every time. 

In this scenario, just because you say to two gap doesn’t mean your going to end with two people. It’s still 3 on 3, and if my guys do their jobs right and double and slide to the blitzer.....it’s hat on hat. We don’t even recognize where the back is, if he is spread both your backers wouldn’t be there, easier to recognize blitzer, and if he is RBs have rules and QBs have hots. 

Its blitz pick up 101, it’s practiced and repeated daily. Heyward takes the guard towards the tackle spot, and he will happily push him up alone, the center and the guard will double and release to the blitzer off Tuitt.

You can scheme all you want, but for the most part free rushers mean someone messed up. It’s the interior and the back having confusion over who gets the blitzer, it’s guys not understanding they have numbers to switch off, it’s uncovered guys that don’t go hunting, it’s a qb not recognizing numbers or pressure spots, etc.

Thats a bit off the original topic, but it’s why I assumed the way I did. Every blitz you design...the offense has a counter. There is a way to pick it up. It’s the way both rooms work. I understand the goal is get a free blitzer, but the realty is the offense also has plans to stop that. So in that case, I see one on one across the board...and in the NFL, that’s how dudes make a living....thriving off one on one. 

Again, like I said before, if you don’t consider getting one on ones a benefit to the players then I’ll defer to you on that front as that’s not my side of the ball. But  that’s where my assumption came from. 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

And that’s fine in all the rules and everything, but my intent in blitzing isn’t to free up the DL to be a hat on a hat. It’s to use them to allow the extra rushers to have a chance at getting home unblocked. 

A blitz that’s intended to get a hat on a hat is a run blitz. So that would be like putting VWill right in the A-Gap from the start. In those blitzes my intention is not allowing a lineman to get to the second level so my other LBs and CBs is able to fill the lanes and take down the runner. 

In my playbook alone there’s 15 different style blitzes, I would say about 10 of them are intended to get a guy free. 5 of them are to force the offense to keep extra guys from a route. 

I would say my favorite one is the scrape eagle fire. We use a 3-4, so at the snap the ROLB and RDE both loop the NT, who’s dragging the OC out on a double stunt. As that happens my Mack blitzes the C-Gap on the LTs side. Very little you can do to defend that. You’ve got to have multiple blockers slide inside, and yet I’ve still got someone coming from the side I’m unoccupying there so your LG and LT can’t leave. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Again, I understand the intent is a free rusher, but the reality is the offense plans for this stuff too. 

In the pros your just not going to generate free rusher after free rusher. These things get picked up the large majority of the time. So if you don’t think singling Watt, of Heyward, or Tuitt is a benefit of rushing then okay, my assumptions are incorrect. I understand what the goal is, but if the goal is the only way to win - your going to fail the majority of the time at the NFL level where the offensive players stay within their disciplines far more often than down the levels. 

Its just that there are not many scenarios you can throw — on paper — that I can’t have an answer for — on paper.  What causes differences is individuals. Even the scenario you said (which does sound like a fun as hell blitz, btw), if my guys stay disciplined, pass and replace, we can hold it up. What’s my uncovered LG doing? Is he drifting back like he should and hunting for work? Where are my back and TE? If your running this 3-4, I’m most likely in a base set on early downs and have more blockers in or you left me open lanes for quick passing. Are you bringing your LOLB and your LE? Because then Your sending 6 and leaving 5 in coverage. Are you showing blitz and allowing me at the QB to shift protection and put numbers in my favor again? Your sending your ROLB and your ILB - is my hot on that side, because if so, your action doesn’t even matter, the balls out before it matters. 

My point is just that there are answers to everything on the drawing board. If rushing is pass/fail on the free guy getting home, I would think you wouldn’t be happy with the results at the pro level. So my assumption was that getting really skilled rusher like Watt and Heyward alone would be a benefit of rushing.

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
21 minutes ago, Dcash4 said:

o if you don’t think singling Watt, of Heyward, or Tuitt is a benefit of rushing then okay, my assumptions are incorrect.

Ok, so back to your original point, you wanted to attribute the blazing to them having higher success.  You said you were interested in who was blitzing because who it was could potentially hurt them, that you blitz to benefit Tuitt or Heyward.   

Yes a benefit is them having a one on one, but the  intent of the blitz was not for them to have a pressure off one-on-one.  And that's what you are confusing your offensive side.  The intent for a blitz is to get to the QB.  As is most blitzes, but when it comes to against the offense, especially with the current rules, the intent is more so to disrupt the offense, get them to move faster than what they want.

 

Basically who is blitzing isn't going to tell me as much as you want to know.  Because the intent and benefit are two different things.

 

As for my blitz, my LOLB drops, my LE is in the B-Gap with outside leverage.  So my intent is that my LE and NT are taking on doubles at the snap, the double stunt is meant to put your LT on an island.  If he takes the inside, then your OC has to shed off by NT to help on two guys coming into that area, and your TE/RB has to hold up on my ILB on the edge..  The intent of this blitz is to do just that.  Put your OT on an island and decide what rusher he needs to take.

Yes there are answers to that on a drawing board, but in the end it comes down to my NT forcing himself to be doubled, and getting your OT to have to decide.  No I'm not showing blitz then I call that.  Because I want the OLB action to be delayed.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
16 minutes ago, warfelg said:

Yes a benefit is them having a one on one, but the  intent of the blitz was not for them to have a pressure off one-on-one.

As always War, I appreciate your back and forth - specifically on defense. 

But let me ask this way - because I understand intent and benefit. 

If I have Watt and Tuitt on one side, and Hilton rushes, does that additional rusher benefit Watt and Tuitt getting to the QB? 

If that answe is no, because of design or what have you, then my desire for those numbers is erroneous. 

But im basically just wondering - does additional pressure up the middle increase my chances of guys up the middle winning, and does additional pressure off the edge help my edge guys win. 

I know that’s super simplistic, but I was just assuming that with that basic data, you might be able to pull why we saw a dip on the interior and a rise on the exterior. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
Sign in to follow this  



×