Leisher's 2019 Mock draft 1-19-18. Warning, your not going to like it.

[Leader]

6 minutes ago, AlexGreen#20 said:

Rookie TEs don't contribute. You're hugely overrating Fant if you think he's going to be an upgrade over Graham in year 1. He likely won't even be a better blocker.

I think a rookie TE can contribute. To AllPro levels? No. Probably not - but if incorporated in the system (obviously in keeping with their skillsets) - and our QB who treats a football like its a precious jewel not to be shared would actually chuck the ball to him - I think we'd be pleasantly surprised. Not that I'm calling for getting rid of Graham. No. I'm just saying get the future. This is supposedly a good TE draft class - so lets nab one of them so we know the road we're traveling on.

[SSG]

27 minutes ago, AlexGreen#20 said:

Rookie TEs don't contribute. You're hugely overrating Fant if you think he's going to be an upgrade over Graham in year 1. He likely won't even be a better blocker.

Sure they do.  They may not be stars year one as a receiver but they surely contribute.  They contribute just as much as a 4th offensive tackle or a back up DT which is what a lot of fans are hoping to draft with that #30 pick.  

 

How is 580 yards receiving on 700 offensive snaps a solid contribution for MVS but 550+ yards on 415 snaps or 500+ yards on 625 snaps not contributing?  Jimmy Graham seen 800 snaps with the offense last year.  Mark Andrews seen almost half the snaps and had only 85 fewer yards receiving despite playing with a RB at QB for a large portion of the season.  

Jimmy Graham's production is more than replaceable by a rookie TE.  Even then, I wasn't talking about replacing Graham.  He's not going anywhere because of that contract and we've got nothing on the roster behind him both Lewis and Kendricks being UFAs.

[jleisher]

17 hours ago, badgers0821 said:

I’d rather have Devin White than Anthony Barr.  Also, why Max Williams? Makes no sense.

 

I would have no problem with Devin White either.

[jleisher]

On 1/21/2019 at 10:13 AM, skibrett15 said:

well, I already hate the mistake in the title.  TLDR; I didn't read it because the title.

Didn't read it, but you type in a reply?  I call liar, liar, you read it.  LOL!!!!!

[AlexGreen#20]

5 hours ago, SSG said:

Sure they do.  They may not be stars year one as a receiver but they surely contribute.  They contribute just as much as a 4th offensive tackle or a back up DT which is what a lot of fans are hoping to draft with that #30 pick.  

 

How is 580 yards receiving on 700 offensive snaps a solid contribution for MVS but 550+ yards on 415 snaps or 500+ yards on 625 snaps not contributing?  Jimmy Graham seen 800 snaps with the offense last year.  Mark Andrews seen almost half the snaps and had only 85 fewer yards receiving despite playing with a RB at QB for a large portion of the season.  

Jimmy Graham's production is more than replaceable by a rookie TE.  Even then, I wasn't talking about replacing Graham.  He's not going anywhere because of that contract and we've got nothing on the roster behind him both Lewis and Kendricks being UFAs.

But you're not asking for Mark Andrews, who similar to Graham blurs the line between receiver and TE. You're wanting an in line TE. 

[Cheech]

10 hours ago, AlexGreen#20 said:

Rookie TEs don't contribute. You're hugely overrating Fant if you think he's going to be an upgrade over Graham in year 1. He likely won't even be a better blocker.

Nah, you didn't say something remotely negative about one of my Hawkeye tight ends did you?

 

[Fant] set three of the four Ferentz-era team performance records for tight ends — the pro-agility drill; the 10-yard dash; and, most notably, the vertical jump.

His vertical leap of 42.1 inches during offseason testing would rank higher than any tight end at the NFL Combine in the past seven years.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.hawkcentral.com/amp/735043002

That, and he's going to run close to a 4.5 40.  Last year vs. OsU he straight up blew by Denzel Ward for a TD.

 

The idea that he couldn't out-produce slow-***, lazy-*** Jimmy Graham is wrong.  

Fant isn't a technical blocker, but he knows how to work. He's run blocked in a ZBS for the last 3 years.  At the very least he'll give an effort.  The same cant be said of Graham.

Graham dropped more than a handful of contested balls.  He doesn't have the speed to threaten the deep middle of the field either.  His run after the catch ability is gone.  He wasn't a precise route runner either.  

Fant isn't the perfect prospect.  But he absolutely could out produce Graham this year.  

 

 

[AlexGreen#20]

36 minutes ago, Cheech said:

Nah, you didn't say something remotely negative about one of my Hawkeye tight ends did you?

 

[Fant] set three of the four Ferentz-era team performance records for tight ends — the pro-agility drill; the 10-yard dash; and, most notably, the vertical jump.

His vertical leap of 42.1 inches during offseason testing would rank higher than any tight end at the NFL Combine in the past seven years.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.hawkcentral.com/amp/735043002

That, and he's going to run close to a 4.5 40.  Last year vs. OsU he straight up blew by Denzel Ward for a TD.

 

The idea that he couldn't out-produce slow-***, lazy-*** Jimmy Graham is wrong.  

Fant isn't a technical blocker, but he knows how to work. He's run blocked in a ZBS for the last 3 years.  At the very least he'll give an effort.  The same cant be said of Graham.

Graham dropped more than a handful of contested balls.  He doesn't have the speed to threaten the deep middle of the field either.  His run after the catch ability is gone.  He wasn't a precise route runner either.  

Fant isn't the perfect prospect.  But he absolutely could out produce Graham this year.  

 

 

Everybody's the best athlete of all time in off-season workouts. Then they get to the combine and it normalizes. Every DB in the country ran a 4.33 in off-season workouts this year. Most of the off-season workouts are still freaking hand times for the love of God. 

He's not running a ******* 4.5, if he's sub 4.7 everybody should be thrilled. 4.5 is faster than the average starting WIDE RECEIVER in the NFL. 

Graham is neither slow nor lazy, Fant is probably faster than he is at this point, but Graham has the wheels to get it done. He's also not lazy, though this is the part where somebody generally parts that stupid Twitter video with the 17 plays all not showing Graham blocking poorly in any relevant fashion.

Every body in the ******* world has blocked in a Zone Blocking System. Why do people keep posting this like it's something special? There isn't a pro or major college team in the country that hasn't melded the zone concepts into their schemes. Sweet, Fant knows how to step at a 45 degree angle, alert the press. Fant isn't even a plus blocker against college players. He's not going to be a good blocker immediately. And again, who cares, TE blocking is basketball relevant.

Didn't Graham lead our team in drop rate with a ******* broken thumb? I get that people remember the big plays, but Graham was pretty dependable last year. We just have a QB who only looks at one guy in the redzone.

The only way Fant will outproduce Graham is if he goes to a team with a QB who targets TEs, targets TEs in the redzone, can throw a ******* vertical ball, and treats him like a WR.

And I like Fant, but the expectations on rookies to come in and produce immediately are stupid. Half of first round picks never become regular starters in their career. 

[SSG]

8 hours ago, AlexGreen#20 said:

Everybody's the best athlete of all time in off-season workouts. Then they get to the combine and it normalizes. Every DB in the country ran a 4.33 in off-season workouts this year. Most of the off-season workouts are still freaking hand times for the love of God. 

He's not running a ******* 4.5, if he's sub 4.7 everybody should be thrilled. 4.5 is faster than the average starting WIDE RECEIVER in the NFL. 

Graham is neither slow nor lazy, Fant is probably faster than he is at this point, but Graham has the wheels to get it done. He's also not lazy, though this is the part where somebody generally parts that stupid Twitter video with the 17 plays all not showing Graham blocking poorly in any relevant fashion.

Every body in the ******* world has blocked in a Zone Blocking System. Why do people keep posting this like it's something special? There isn't a pro or major college team in the country that hasn't melded the zone concepts into their schemes. Sweet, Fant knows how to step at a 45 degree angle, alert the press. Fant isn't even a plus blocker against college players. He's not going to be a good blocker immediately. And again, who cares, TE blocking is basketball relevant.

Didn't Graham lead our team in drop rate with a ******* broken thumb? I get that people remember the big plays, but Graham was pretty dependable last year. We just have a QB who only looks at one guy in the redzone.

The only way Fant will outproduce Graham is if he goes to a team with a QB who targets TEs, targets TEs in the redzone, can throw a ******* vertical ball, and treats him like a WR.

And I like Fant, but the expectations on rookies to come in and produce immediately are stupid. Half of first round picks never become regular starters in their career. 

Graham was basically a 3 catch for 20-30 yards per game TE last year, which was his production in 8 of his last 10 games.  We obviously have an entirely different definition of what dependable is if that's quality production in your eyes.

Heck last year was a pretty poor TE class and there were multiple rookies who were every bit as productive as Graham.  Yes, Graham was slightly more productive on paper but he needed 175 to 300+ extra offensive snaps to be more productive.  I mean we are trying to compare the production of rookies who were their team's 4th option  to that of the highest paid TE in NFL history who was his team's #2 option (he was second among pass catchers in offensive snaps, targets, catches and yards).  

I don't agree that he's not replaceable.  He was the #2 option on the offense and played 800 snaps.  Just about any warm body could replicate Graham's 55 catches, 635 yards and 2 TDs given that roll in the offense and those snaps.  Since Aaron Rodgers too over, we've never had a #2 option that produced less than Graham this last year.  I don't care that he was more productive than past TEs who played on offenses loaded at WR.  That wasn't the case this year with our WR core being injured and badly lacking starting caliber talent.  

[Hands]

TEs are a lot like a box of candy. They all look good, but depending on their skill set....they will perform differently in game conditions depending on how the coaches use them. Forget last year and what MM did or didn't do with his TEs. The question is what will ML want from his TE? Delanie Walker, his All-Pro TE at TN, is a great blocker, sure handed, and fast enough to move the chains and be a RZ threat. He's 6-2 and around 250#s. I consider him to be more of an H-back verses a traditional TE, but what the heck do I know? Point is we don't know exactly what ML and Gutsy will do in the draft. I do expect them to grab a TE or two considering they have one FB on the squad right now and having an H-back that can block and catch some swing passes seems pretty good for Mr. Rodger's neighborhood. 

[Uffdaswede]

2 hours ago, Hands said:

TEs are a lot like a box of candy. They all look good, but depending on their skill set....they will perform differently in game conditions depending on how the coaches use them. Forget last year and what MM did or didn't do with his TEs. The question is what will ML want from his TE? Delanie Walker, his All-Pro TE at TN, is a great blocker, sure handed, and fast enough to move the chains and be a RZ threat. He's 6-2 and around 250#s. I consider him to be more of an H-back verses a traditional TE, but what the heck do I know? Point is we don't know exactly what ML and Gutsy will do in the draft. I do expect them to grab a TE or two considering they have one FB on the squad right now and having an H-back that can block and catch some swing passes seems pretty good for Mr. Rodger's neighborhood. 

This post tells me that you know more about tight ends than you do candy.

And boy, as I have watched AR over the years and admired his skills, the one thing he kinda sucks at is the well-timed touch pass to a running back. He is really bad at throwing sideways for some reason.

[Cheech]

13 hours ago, AlexGreen#20 said:

Everybody's the best athlete of all time in off-season workouts. Then they get to the combine and it normalizes. Every DB in the country ran a 4.33 in off-season workouts this year. Most of the off-season workouts are still freaking hand times for the love of God. 

He's not running a ******* 4.5, if he's sub 4.7 everybody should be thrilled. 4.5 is faster than the average starting WIDE RECEIVER in the NFL. 

Graham is neither slow nor lazy, Fant is probably faster than he is at this point, but Graham has the wheels to get it done. He's also not lazy, though this is the part where somebody generally parts that stupid Twitter video with the 17 plays all not showing Graham blocking poorly in any relevant fashion.

Every body in the ******* world has blocked in a Zone Blocking System. Why do people keep posting this like it's something special? There isn't a pro or major college team in the country that hasn't melded the zone concepts into their schemes. Sweet, Fant knows how to step at a 45 degree angle, alert the press. Fant isn't even a plus blocker against college players. He's not going to be a good blocker immediately. And again, who cares, TE blocking is basketball relevant.

Didn't Graham lead our team in drop rate with a ******* broken thumb? I get that people remember the big plays, but Graham was pretty dependable last year. We just have a QB who only looks at one guy in the redzone.

The only way Fant will outproduce Graham is if he goes to a team with a QB who targets TEs, targets TEs in the redzone, can throw a ******* vertical ball, and treats him like a WR.

And I like Fant, but the expectations on rookies to come in and produce immediately are stupid. Half of first round picks never become regular starters in their career. 

Not sure how a 4.7 TE is ever going to run by a 4.32 CB who was the first CB taken in the 2018 draft.  Fant does just that vs. Denzel Ward.

So - I could give a **** less what he's timed at.  He plays fast.  He gets behind linebackers and he outruns DB's.  I don't foresee that 42" vertical going away when the combine rolls around either.  

[AlexGreen#20]

1 hour ago, Cheech said:

Not sure how a 4.7 TE is ever going to run by a 4.32 CB who was the first CB taken in the 2018 draft.  Fant does just that vs. Denzel Ward.

So - I could give a **** less what he's timed at.  He plays fast.  He gets behind linebackers and he outruns DB's.  I don't foresee that 42" vertical going away when the combine rolls around either.  

Because he's running forward while Denzel Ward is backpedaling and doesn't getting his hips turned? How is this confusing.

And the vertical really only matters for defensive lineman. How many plays this year did our receivers have to jump vertically to make? Like 3?

I like Noah Fant, I think he's going to be a good player, but he's not going to be better than Jimmy Graham as a rookie if they're used in remotely the same roles.

[SSG]

19 hours ago, AlexGreen#20 said:

Because he's running forward while Denzel Ward is backpedaling and doesn't getting his hips turned? How is this confusing.

And the vertical really only matters for defensive lineman. How many plays this year did our receivers have to jump vertically to make? Like 3?

I like Noah Fant, I think he's going to be a good player, but he's not going to be better than Jimmy Graham as a rookie if they're used in remotely the same roles.

Not sure if it matters all that much if a rookie TE can replace Graham this year.  Chances are good that this is his last year on the team and we've nothing behind him.  Reality is there aren't many positions that will give us an immediate impact as rookies.  A rookie back up TE is going to contribute just as much as a 4th offensive tackle or a 3rd or 4th DT.  Kendricks and Lewis combined played on almost 50% of the offensive snaps and they are both UFAs.  

[CWood21]

On 1/23/2019 at 12:48 AM, badgers0821 said:

I’d rather have Devin White than Anthony Barr.  Also, why Max Williams? Makes no sense.

Why not both?  Sign Barr in FA and draft Devin White.  They're not mutually exclusive.  The better "comparison would be a White/Barr package vs. Ferrell/CJ Mosley.  Which would you rather have?

[CWood21]

On 1/23/2019 at 9:27 AM, SSG said:

I agree.  Gotta imagine that Barr is hurting his value by staying in Minnesota.  Think he's got potential for more money as an OLB in a 3-4 in a system that uses him more as an edge rusher.  

No doubt.  There's little doubt in my mind that Barr's days in Minnesota are numbered.  Some 3-4 team is going to give him significantly more money than Minnesota will, and it doesn't help that Minnesota is a bit cash strapped right now.  Right now, they're around $3.5M in cap space.  Assuming @vikingsrule list was accurate, Mike Remmers should be an easy cap casualty and saves another $4.5M.  He also says that Andrew Sendejo saves $5.5M, which if they cut both of them pushes them up to $12.7M after the draft class.  I think Sheldon Richardson is a bigger must sign than Barr.