RuskieTitan Posted January 29, 2019 Share Posted January 29, 2019 On 1/26/2019 at 6:51 AM, candyman93 said: It’s easy for certain people to say this when they’re not being effected. If someone is in a field that can be readily replaced for cheaper by automation, perhaps they should be the ones who strive to make themselves irreplaceable, rather than complain and expect the status quo to continue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
x0x Posted January 30, 2019 Share Posted January 30, 2019 The issue is always going to be the union. The refs on the field could have been replaced by all but 1 guy about a decade ago. Out of bounds triggers like in tennis would eliminate the notion of checking if a player is in or out of bounds. Drones tracking the ball could determine if it's hitting the ground or in cases of muffed punts, etc. Then you have a cameras monitoring player activity all over the field determining if penalty has been committed. Keep the challenge flags where a manual review is done by the ONE official on the field and the guy who makes the verbal calls elsewhere. We already have the technology. But I do think by 2050 if refs as they are still in the game then it's because the unions run the country. You could argue 80% of jobs are replaceable but that's not how economics work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soko Posted January 30, 2019 Share Posted January 30, 2019 On 1/24/2019 at 6:33 PM, Gmen said: My idea to solve the officiating crisis basically uses the idea concept of "the sum of community knowledge is greater than individual expert knowledge". On 1/24/2019 at 6:33 PM, Gmen said: I propose that we eliminate on-field referees and allow the game to be refereed from a remote location by many referees. By "many" I mean hundreds or even thousands. Yes, you read that right. Thousands of referees sitting behind a computer monitor with access to dozens of camera angles. Each having the ability to "throw a flag", which would be essentially pushing a button on a keyboard. On 1/24/2019 at 6:33 PM, Gmen said: In order to get rid of on-field referees, we'll need to address some logistics. Who will spot the ball? Who will keep track of the chains? Answer : Robots. On 1/24/2019 at 6:33 PM, Gmen said: So who will these referees be? And how will the NFL pay for thousands of referees? They won't. Officiating will be done for free, by us, knowledgeable hard core football fans. Not just any fans - fans that spend hours upon hours debating football on message boards. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theJ Posted January 30, 2019 Share Posted January 30, 2019 On 1/26/2019 at 9:59 AM, Gmen said: On 1/26/2019 at 8:51 AM, candyman93 said: It’s easy for certain people to say this when they’re not being effected. Maybe a bad example, but we’re not mad at cars for displacing rickshaw pullers, are we? In a sense, we automated travel. In doing so, we actually created a TON of jobs for people. Those rickshaw pullers had opportunities to go work in the automotive industry, whether it was engineering, manufacturing, repair, sales, etc. And now those jobs are being automated as well. And like the rickshaw drivers, people will need to adjust again. I won’t get into politics, but I think the companies displacing the workers should at least be partially held responsible for the retraining of the workforce - whether it’s directly, or through higher taxes which feed government programs for continued education. But, you can’t stifle progress because it puts certain people out of jobs. I think this a fascinating topic of conversation and would love to launch into a 5 pager about it. But if i could direct your attention back to the original post @candyman93 replied to, i would like to point that out we're decades away from being able to automate the job a referee does. And very likely much longer. I've worked on some automation projects during my career, and am working on some now. The idea that a machine can watch 22 people run around a football field and evaluate penalties is pure science fiction with today's technology. I've personally witnessed multi-million dollar machines that can't do 1% of that right now, and they're using top of the line hardware and bleeding edge software. Deep learning has some potential to do what you're talking about, but the processing power required to evaluate video in real time would be staggering (even if it could do it, which currently, it can't). So it's a moot point. Sorry, you'll just have to live with humans doing it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ReggieCamp Posted January 30, 2019 Share Posted January 30, 2019 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mse326 Posted January 30, 2019 Share Posted January 30, 2019 This is the dumbest thing I ever seen. 1. If you want it to be instantaneous you can't have multiple angles. At least not all at once. People aren't capable of that type of focus. Not all your refs would be looking 2. Wisdom of the crowd only works if everyone is neutral and independent. You can't find the fans you want like that. (also do you have any idea how many people have been wrongly accused by 4Chan detectives? Wisdom of the crowd ain't so hot either). 3. Even the hard core fans don't fully know the rule book 4. Refs spend more than 40 hours a week on the different duties. It is a full time job. No one is doing that for free 5. Even if you do find people willing to do it for free you are really opening the door for illegal bribes 6. No way your technology won't be vulnerable to hacks and with billions of dollars on the line you can be sure there will be a non stop barrage of people trying. There are plenty more but you get the point. This is horrible in so many ways. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Calvert28 Posted January 31, 2019 Share Posted January 31, 2019 Just wait till VR gets better and everyone can see the play from like 5 feet away instead of like 30 yards. Bricks will be shat every game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gmen Posted January 31, 2019 Author Share Posted January 31, 2019 4 hours ago, theJ said: I think this a fascinating topic of conversation and would love to launch into a 5 pager about it. But if i could direct your attention back to the original post @candyman93 replied to, i would like to point that out we're decades away from being able to automate the job a referee does. And very likely much longer. I've worked on some automation projects during my career, and am working on some now. The idea that a machine can watch 22 people run around a football field and evaluate penalties is pure science fiction with today's technology. I've personally witnessed multi-million dollar machines that can't do 1% of that right now, and they're using top of the line hardware and bleeding edge software. Deep learning has some potential to do what you're talking about, but the processing power required to evaluate video in real time would be staggering (even if it could do it, which currently, it can't). So it's a moot point. Sorry, you'll just have to live with humans doing it. I work with machine learning as well, so I’m well of the limitations of the current state of the art. But considering the leaps and bounds image recognition has improved in the past 5 years, it’s not out of the realm of possibility that in 10 years the technology will be there. Even right now, i bet it can be used to call false starts, offsides, delay of game (a sensor in the football would suffice for this). Other penalties which are more subjective like holding, pass interference would obviously be more difficult. Bottom line is that although we can’t fully automate refereeing, we can use technology to make it much better than what we currently have, which is basically a Microsoft surface pro and a referee running to the sideline for a review. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theJ Posted January 31, 2019 Share Posted January 31, 2019 3 minutes ago, Gmen said: I work with machine learning as well, so I’m well of the limitations of the current state of the art. But considering the leaps and bounds image recognition has improved in the past 5 years, it’s not out of the realm of possibility that in 10 years the technology will be there. Even right now, i bet it can be used to call false starts, offsides, delay of game (a sensor in the football would suffice for this). Other penalties which are more subjective like holding, pass interference would obviously be more difficult I would agree with what you said there. Maybe it's there in 10 years, but it's all speculation. And I can't see something like the NFL, a good ol Boys league, being pioneers in it. Just like driverless cars, they're going to want 100% accurate call rates even though the humans are far less accurate. It's a pipe dream. I sincerely doubt that we see it in our lifetimes (even if it would be super cool). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bzane Posted January 31, 2019 Share Posted January 31, 2019 Well, now, I wouldn't say yer crazy, jist touched in th' haid, Young Fella Me Lad! Maybe it's just that I'm a Humanitarian, but I say, no machine will ever call a game better than a human being! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mazrimiv Posted February 3, 2019 Share Posted February 3, 2019 Too many reviews isn't the problem, it's the absurd review process. There is zero reason why a centralized review team with immediate access to all replay angles could not handle reviews in less than half the time it currently takes. This ritual where the on field ref goes to the sideline to review replays is beyond stupid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mazrimiv Posted February 3, 2019 Share Posted February 3, 2019 If we're going to discuss technologies that aren't here yet, why stop at machine learned officiating? Lets go full blown Minority Report and put together a pre-penalty unit that lets refs know which penalties are going to happen before each play. The amount of time saved would be tremendous, and is only slightly less likely to happen than what was suggested by the OP. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Superman(DH23) Posted February 3, 2019 Share Posted February 3, 2019 From me a couple weeks ago Here's how you fix it. You borrow heavily from the college system. You have a replay official in the booth who reviews every play, period. If he sees something blatant he buzzes the official, overturns the call. If he sees something that he needs a little bit more time to review, he buzzes the official and then gets 90 secs to review all the angles. If he cant make a definitive call based on truly "indisputable video evidence" Call stands, clock rolls on official signal. In the event of a badly missed no call on a penalty again with indisputable video evidence, he buzzes the ref, the ref then goes under the hood for 90 secs, and decides if their is a penalty or not, under a common sense prospective. IE if it's not agregious and blatant you dont make the call. If 90 secs is ever reached on any replay, the call automatically stands. Stadiums can put a countdown time up. If a call is overturned, the ref can then go under the hood, to ensure the ball is spotted correctly. Coaches still get 2 challenges, in the event that the opponent is trying to quick snap to avoid the review. Challenge can be used at anytime, to review any call, but the indisputable video evidence is always the standard, and replay always has a 90 sec time limit. Absolutely, positively no more calls to New York to decide a call. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.