Hall of Fame Finalists 2019?

[dtait93]

1 hour ago, SkippyX said:

Can someone tell me what makes Champ Bailey better than Ty Law?

Their stats are close to identical except that Law crushes Bailey for playoff impact.

Probably a popularity thing to be honest.

Bailey had 7 more Pro Bowl appearances than Law, and I remember on Madden Bailey always being rated like 4-5 points higher. Bailey always seemed to be in that 94-98 range, and Law always seemed to be in that 90-94 range. I don't think they were that far apart to be honest. A stat showing receptions, yards, touchdowns, and passer rating allowed would be helpful but I don't think we have that available to us.

[TecmoSuperJoe]

Even though he's a Ram, I hope Bruce gets in, but I think he'll be passed on once more this time around. One of the greatest route runners ever, and he played fairly well into his 30's because of it. His 1995 season was remarkable considering the circumstances. Speaking of former Rams, Henry Ellard isn't even considered, which is unfortunate. He was a great receiver for a long time, hindered by the inconsistent quarterback issues in LA.

[bucsfan333]

I think Ronde Barber is more deserving than John Lynch. And I think it's gonna be a long time before Ronde makes it. If he even does.

[Mr Bad Example]

20 hours ago, x0x said:

Typically 5 go in plus the veteran committee which doesn't include these guys.

Tony Gonzalez, TE
Steve Hutchinson, G
Tony Boselli,T
Champ Bailey, CB
Ed Reed, FS
 

Gonzalez, Reed and Bailey are essentially locks so that leaves 2 for open discussion. I think personally think Atwater finally gets in along with John Lynch.

I don't think Flores, Coryell or James have any chance this time around and of course it's doubtful more than one offensive lineman gets in. Isaac Bruce is a strong candidate I wouldn't be surprised and then with the Pats making 3 straight Super Bowls both Ty Law and Seymour could sneak in although I see them waiting a bit more.

Hutchinson and Boselli were among the best EVER at their positions. I feel like with WR numbers being put up, the WRs of the past 20 yrs are going to get the short shrift as far as HoF votes. 

Reed definitely belongs in, but GB S Leroy Butler was better than Atwater and Lynch. 

[Mr Bad Example]

15 hours ago, x0x said:

I feel really bad for Roger Craig. Though his Super Bowl rings console him he deserves a spot.

If you look at Craig's career, he only had 3 or 4 yrs were he was truly amazingly great. Some of that was due to him being Wendell Tyler's FB rather than a RB, but still. 

I'd probably put him in the Hall of Very Good. 

[x0x]

18 hours ago, Mr Bad Example said:

If you look at Craig's career, he only had 3 or 4 yrs were he was truly amazingly great. Some of that was due to him being Wendell Tyler's FB rather than a RB, but still. 

I'd probably put him in the Hall of Very Good. 

Very few all-pro running backs have 3 rings though. I know people don't like that argument but it is indeed the Hall of FAME and titles elevate that.

In terms of how many great years he had, keep in mind for running backs 5 is somewhat of a cut-off. Sayers ONLY had 5 seasons period and he wasn't catching many passes just pure running but also a great return man.

Roger Craig

1988: Makes 1st Team All-Pro, obviously for this his best season
1985: His 1,000 x 1,000 season.
1986: I put this above the 87/89 campaigns because 81 catches and slightly better YPC
1989: Really good 9.7 catch average, Pro Bowl
1987: Strike-shortened, solid numbers Pro Bowl

So there's your 5. Now you gotta consider his playoff numbers. 88-89 runs are very good plus you got Super Bowl 84. He also had games where his receiving stats make up for his poor rushing numbers like against Minnesota in 87. Overall you're looking at 8 good-great playoff performances, again more than a lot of running backs including Hall of Fame guys.
Secondary seasons:
83-84, he's learning the system pretty well. His receiving yards and overall receptions as well as his above 4 YPC and TDs make them solid secondary seasons. In 83 he actually leads his team with TDs by 4. Now he's not really utilized properly in Minnesota and his volume numbers appear paltry but his averages are still there with 4.0 on 105 carries and 4 TDs with 22 catches for 164 yards being Terry Allen on the depth chart.
So yeah, in effect his resume is 5 good-great seasons with an overall 7 solid years of production but also with 3 Super Bowls which he contributed to every time. For a running back that's a strong case in a weaker year of candidates.
Terrell Davis only had 4 note-worthy season with 2 playoff runs, so he's set a precedent for Craig to get in.

 

[m haynes]

Isaac Bruce, WR                No
Edgerrin James, RB          No
Tony Gonzalez, TE            Yes
Kevin Mawae, C/G            No
Alan Faneca,G                   No
Steve Hutchinson, G        Yes
Tony Boselli,T                   No
Champ Bailey, CB             Yes
Ty Law, CB                        No
John Lynch, FS                  No
Ed Reed, FS                       Yes
Steve Atwater, S               No
Richard Seymour, DE/DT    No
Tom Flores, Coach              No
Don Coryell, Coach            Yes

[Malik]

On 1/25/2019 at 5:39 PM, bucsfan333 said:

I think Ronde Barber is more deserving than John Lynch. And I think it's gonna be a long time before Ronde makes it. If he even does.

Definitely think Ronde deserves it but he played during an era with so many great CBs. He played in Tampa Bay and was never a big personality on the field or with the media so I think he gets forgotten a lot. Sam Madison also comes to mind.

[SkippyX]

On 1/25/2019 at 4:56 PM, Mr Bad Example said:

Hutchinson and Boselli were among the best EVER at their positions. I feel like with WR numbers being put up, the WRs of the past 20 yrs are going to get the short shrift as far as HoF votes. 

Reed definitely belongs in, but GB S Leroy Butler was better than Atwater and Lynch. 

The problem with Boselli is that he did not win a Super Bowl. (or even play in one)

Warner and Davis got in after short careers because they were dominant AND won or played in multiple Super Bowls.

Davis and Boselli both had elite level 7 year careers but Davis was the best running back in playoff history and was league MVP and Super Bowl MVP.

• Davis averaged 147.5 yards rushing per playoff game at 5.59 a carry with 12 TDs in 8 games
• Warner had the top 3 passing yardage games in Super Bowl history when he retired (including his MVP game in 1999)
  • He is also #2 in passer rating in the playoffs with 9 playoff wins.

 

There is nothing easy to point to that elevates Boselli over other great guys who played twice as long as he did.

• 4 incredible seasons
• 2 incredible 3/4 seasons

He also shared the same era with Roaf, Pace, Jones, and Ogden.

NFL.COM Brandt Ranks Boselli Behind all 4 Guys

[Kiwibrown]

I'd love to see Seymour make it, he was a beast at a non sexy position.

[JAF-N72EX]

1 hour ago, SkippyX said:

The problem with Boselli is that he did not win a Super Bowl. (or even play in one)

Warner and Davis got in after short careers because they were dominant AND won or played in multiple Super Bowls.

Davis and Boselli both had elite level 7 year careers but Davis was the best running back in playoff history and was league MVP and Super Bowl MVP.

• Davis averaged 147.5 yards rushing per playoff game at 5.59 a carry with 12 TDs in 8 games
• Warner had the top 3 passing yardage games in Super Bowl history when he retired (including his MVP game in 1999)
  • He is also #2 in passer rating in the playoffs with 9 playoff wins.

 

There is nothing easy to point to that elevates Boselli over other great guys who played twice as long as he did.

• 4 incredible seasons
• 2 incredible 3/4 seasons

He also shared the same era with Roaf, Pace, Jones, and Ogden.

NFL.COM Brandt Ranks Boselli Behind all 4 Guys

I'm not sure whats worse here. The fact that you're using Boselli (an offensive lineman) not winning a SB on a brand new expansion team against him, or that you consider Brandt a credible source.

[SkippyX]

20 minutes ago, JustAnotherFan said:

I'm not sure whats worse here. The fact that you're using Boselli (an offensive lineman) not winning a SB on a brand new expansion team against him, or that you consider Brandt a credible source.

Brandt is a legendary talent evaluator who is on the cusp of the Hall of Fame himself; but on the other hand, you have a computer.

I am not the one denying Boselli from the Hall of Fame, but I am discussing the very real challenges he faces

I also pointed out how 2 short careers got past the HoF gatekeepers based on their incredible post-season success.

 

That Brand New Expansion Team played in 2 AFCCGs and went 14-2 in one of those seasons.

 

Snarky Ignorance is not a virtue.

 

[Mr Bad Example]

10 hours ago, SkippyX said:

The problem with Boselli is that he did not win a Super Bowl. (or even play in one)

There is nothing easy to point to that elevates Boselli over other great guys who played twice as long as he did.

• 4 incredible seasons
• 2 incredible 3/4 seasons

He also shared the same era with Roaf, Pace, Jones, and Ogden.

NFL.COM Brandt Ranks Boselli Behind all 4 Guys

And sharing an era with other greats doesn't make a player any less good. Is there some sort of limit? Look at the mid 80s - you've got Marino, Elway, Montana, Kelly, Moon, late Fouts....also bubble careers like Esiason and Simms - do you grade on "well, only 3 can be really good and none of the rest get in." Or currently, you have Peyton Manning, Brady, Rodgers, Brees, Roethlisberger, and some would say Phillip Rivers and Eli Manning. Who do you downgrade because there are "too many"? 

I certainly see what you're saying regarding voter biases, but if there's any place to point out HoF voters are dumb, isn't here the place to do it? 
 

[Mr Bad Example]

8 hours ago, SkippyX said:

 

I also pointed out how 2 short careers got past the HoF gatekeepers based on their incredible post-season success.

 

But they also had AMAZING regular season success. 

Basically, I was pro-Warner in the Hof when he retired because I thought his regular season level of play merited it. It's a weird, donut-shaped career, which you don't see often, but he was MVP-caliber from 99-01/08 and  among the best QBs in the game 07 & 09 - that's 6 yrs of dominance, just not in a row. If he'd started shaky, had 6 yrs of his best, and declined (similar to Steve Young), no one would have quibbled. His excellent postseason performance was just cherry on top IMO. 

However, I'm not a Hall voter, and they go about it backwards. I'm betting that for most people it was that he QB'ed 3 SB teams, and was a highly productive playoff passer, and was good enough to win 2 MVPs, and then couldn't figure out how to rate his regular season career so just fell back on "Super Bowls and MVPs."  

[BullsandBroncos]

On 1/25/2019 at 5:56 PM, Mr Bad Example said:

Hutchinson and Boselli were among the best EVER at their positions. I feel like with WR numbers being put up, the WRs of the past 20 yrs are going to get the short shrift as far as HoF votes. 

Reed definitely belongs in, but GB S Leroy Butler was better than Atwater and Lynch. 

In no world was Leroy Butler better than Atwater.