soulman Posted February 17, 2019 Share Posted February 17, 2019 4 hours ago, Heinz D. said: Doesn't mean that's his "type". And @AZBearsFan is right, it probably isn't. He'll most likely start opposite Robinson all of next year, unless something weird happens. I only say that because of our three top WRs Miller is most qualified for the slot position based and size and skills. Gabriel seemed to be used mostly on the edge opposite ARob where his speed is more useful and his small stature isn't as much of an issue and ARod is definitely an outside guy. If we line up with 3 WRs whose more likely to line up in the slot? I didn't mean it to say it's the only spot Miller is capable of playing or will play. Just how he might be used more often. Nothin' bad about that. Some you guys wanna get way too hung up on a simple description. For instance; Gronk has the body type and size of an inline Y blocking tight end. That's not how NE uses him but early is his career he could have been seen that way as well. Or it's like when saying a QB is more of a "pocket type passer" that doesn't always mean he has no mobility or ability to scramble or run. Brady has always been an example of that. That's all I was saying. Not that it's an absolute. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soulman Posted February 17, 2019 Share Posted February 17, 2019 3 hours ago, AZBearsFan said: What I mean is that his skill set isn’t just limited to attributes that are effective in the slot. I expect his role to expand significantly in year two. And in no way did I mean he's limited to the slot position which is why I said "slot type". Out of our three top guys he just fits that spot best when we go with 3 WRs but even then I didn't mean he always gonna be in the slot position. It's like saying Shaheen is a more typical size Y type inline TE but we don't intend to limit him to only that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sugashane Posted February 17, 2019 Share Posted February 17, 2019 6 hours ago, soulman said: I only say that because of our three top WRs Miller is most qualified for the slot position based and size and skills. Gabriel seemed to be used mostly on the edge opposite ARob where his speed is more useful and his small stature isn't as much of an issue and ARod is definitely an outside guy. I'd actually like to put Gabriel in the slot more. Not because of lack of size but I think with his speed he could be put on more fades/posts/corners to threaten deep. From the Z he would really only be able to occupy one safety, but from the slot he could run one of the aforementioned routes and cause either or both safeties to respect his speed and gain depth. That opens up more room for Robinson, Miller, and Burton underneath. Of course that is dependent upon Nagy being more aggressive in his use of Gabriel and Trubisky being more accurate overall on his deep throws, but still. It could open up things more for the other guys, including the RB. If both safeties are 20+ yards away and he gets a step on a LB then we are looking at a potentially huge gain. I believe (though cannot prove) that our offense didn't cause defenses to fear the deep ball, so safeties were able to come up and assist a lot. That was one of the reasons for a lack of YAC IMO, because there was often multiple tacklers rather then breaking one and having 10 yards prior to the next contact. They might break one tackle but then get cleaned up immediately by someone else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AZBearsFan Posted February 17, 2019 Share Posted February 17, 2019 1 hour ago, Sugashane said: I believe (though cannot prove) that our offense didn't cause defenses to fear the deep ball, so safeties were able to come up and assist a lot. That was one of the reasons for a lack of YAC IMO, because there was often multiple tacklers rather then breaking one and having 10 yards prior to the next contact. They might break one tackle but then get cleaned up immediately by someone else. I think that Howard’s lack of ability in the passing game was a factor there too. If they couldn’t count on him as an underneath option then we had to make someone else an underneath option. That was Gabriel a lot. He had 67 catches and only 688 yards for 10.3 ypc. He had 2 catches over 40 yards and 2 others over 30 in there. To keep that average his 54-yard catch had to coincide with 5 other catches averaging 2 yards. His line week 17 was 4/61 with a 40-yard catch, so 3/21 for the others. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Damikeeeee Posted February 17, 2019 Share Posted February 17, 2019 I hope we keep Howard but I want Cohen starting. I don't see the huge upside in creating a hole at RB just to gain a mid rounder. Now if we traded Fournette.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sugashane Posted February 17, 2019 Share Posted February 17, 2019 2 hours ago, AZBearsFan said: I think that Howard’s lack of ability in the passing game was a factor there too. If they couldn’t count on him as an underneath option then we had to make someone else an underneath option. That was Gabriel a lot. He had 67 catches and only 688 yards for 10.3 ypc. He had 2 catches over 40 yards and 2 others over 30 in there. To keep that average his 54-yard catch had to coincide with 5 other catches averaging 2 yards. His line week 17 was 4/61 with a 40-yard catch, so 3/21 for the others. It was nothing new for how Gabriel was used. Even week one he had 5 catches for only 25 yards. The real kicker - he had a long of 31 yards. So his next 4 receptions netted -6 yards. As for Howard, he isn't a great receiving back but he isn't unable to catch. His hands have improv3d from his rookie year. He caught over 70% the last two years but is not lining up as a WR like Cohen. He can routinely get the 4-6 yard dump off though, which is better than what our screen game usually produced. If Nagy is THAT constricted in his playcalling when Howard is in then he has the issue as much as Howard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heinz D. Posted February 17, 2019 Share Posted February 17, 2019 12 hours ago, Damikeeeee said: Are you being serious? Yeah. Absolutely. You don't think Miller is going to be a starting caliber receiver in the league? Dude...he's going to be the team's best receiver--probably as early as next season. (IMHO, of course). 10 hours ago, soulman said: I only say that because of our three top WRs Miller is most qualified for the slot position based and size and skills. Gabriel seemed to be used mostly on the edge opposite ARob where his speed is more useful and his small stature isn't as much of an issue and ARod is definitely an outside guy. If we line up with 3 WRs whose more likely to line up in the slot? I didn't mean it to say it's the only spot Miller is capable of playing or will play. Just how he might be used more often. Nothin' bad about that. Some you guys wanna get way too hung up on a simple description. For instance; Gronk has the body type and size of an inline Y blocking tight end. That's not how NE uses him but early is his career he could have been seen that way as well. Or it's like when saying a QB is more of a "pocket type passer" that doesn't always mean he has no mobility or ability to scramble or run. Brady has always been an example of that. That's all I was saying. Not that it's an absolute. I get where you're coming from, I just truly believe that Miller is going to be that good. But you're right about them mixing things up, and I'm sure they will. Sugashane has a damn good point about Gabriel in the slot, and since you mentioned size there--maybe Wims will get in on things at that position, too. All food for thought. Bring on next season!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sugashane Posted February 17, 2019 Share Posted February 17, 2019 2 hours ago, Damikeeeee said: I hope we keep Howard but I want Cohen starting. I don't see the huge upside in creating a hole at RB just to gain a mid rounder. Now if we traded Fournette.... I wouldn't trade Howard for Founette in a straight up swap. Fournette has a few wow plays and then has been amazingly mediocre. Add in his apparent lack of durability (missed about 1/3 or his games) while he is a pure power back and I'm out. Plus his price tag. Just not a fan of his. His hype was crazy and easy to get swept up in, but his play hasn't justified it since he was drafted. I'd take my chances with Howard or the midrounder. 5 minutes ago, Heinz D. said: Yeah. Absolutely. You don't think Miller is going to be a starting caliber receiver in the league? Dude...he's going to be the team's best receiver--probably as early as next season. (IMHO, of course). I get where you're coming from, I just truly believe that Miller is going to be that good. But you're right about them mixing things up, and I'm sure they will. Sugashane has a damn good point about Gabriel in the slot, and since you mentioned size there--maybe Wims will get in on things at that position, too. All food for thought. Bring on next season!!! While Gabriel was better than I anticipated I still think he is a solid 3/mediocre 2. I hope to see Miller ascend to be a nightmare duo with Robinson. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soulman Posted February 17, 2019 Share Posted February 17, 2019 4 hours ago, Sugashane said: I'd actually like to put Gabriel in the slot more. Not because of lack of size but I think with his speed he could be put on more fades/posts/corners to threaten deep. From the Z he would really only be able to occupy one safety, but from the slot he could run one of the aforementioned routes and cause either or both safeties to respect his speed and gain depth. That opens up more room for Robinson, Miller, and Burton underneath. Of course that is dependent upon Nagy being more aggressive in his use of Gabriel and Trubisky being more accurate overall on his deep throws, but still. It could open up things more for the other guys, including the RB. If both safeties are 20+ yards away and he gets a step on a LB then we are looking at a potentially huge gain. I believe (though cannot prove) that our offense didn't cause defenses to fear the deep ball, so safeties were able to come up and assist a lot. That was one of the reasons for a lack of YAC IMO, because there was often multiple tacklers rather then breaking one and having 10 yards prior to the next contact. They might break one tackle but then get cleaned up immediately by someone else. Miller and Gabriel are at least somewhat interchangeable in the slot. Nagy used Gabriel more outside last season but as he develops his offense that could change. I'm thinking we'd all like to see more big plays out of Gabriel this year and better use of his speed. Where he lines up to achieve that makes little difference to me. That's why it's nice having receivers who can handle both roles when called upon. The only issue I see for Gabriel playing inside is you don't want a 5'8"/165 lb having to sacrifice himself often against 200-220lb Safeties and even bigger LBs. He plays tough but IMHO you still don't want beat him up and expect him to stay healthy for 16 games. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Damikeeeee Posted February 17, 2019 Share Posted February 17, 2019 I think Miller is what most teams look for in a slot. Quicker then fast, RAC. I like Robinson and Gabriel outside. I think Miller can be good. He's proven to be a rood red zone option. Don't sleep on Fournette. Adrian Peterson couldn't stay healthy til he did. That's why he went 8 or whatever. Give Fournette or offense and watch. He will make people eat crow. He was there O this season with Blake (pukes in mouth) Bortles and I think they lost Allen Robinson too. He's good. Fournette is an elite powerback and has so much more he can offer. He. Will. Be. Special. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sugashane Posted February 17, 2019 Share Posted February 17, 2019 2 hours ago, soulman said: Miller and Gabriel are at least somewhat interchangeable in the slot. Nagy used Gabriel more outside last season but as he develops his offense that could change. I'm thinking we'd all like to see more big plays out of Gabriel this year and better use of his speed. Where he lines up to achieve that makes little difference to me. That's why it's nice having receivers who can handle both roles when called upon. The only issue I see for Gabriel playing inside is you don't want a 5'8"/165 lb having to sacrifice himself often against 200-220lb Safeties and even bigger LBs. He plays tough but IMHO you still don't want beat him up and expect him to stay healthy for 16 games. Yep. I prefer interchangeable players for positions. @dll2000 and I were talking about CB and wanting to just get the three best players out there, and I am the same for WRs. You can have the small Welker/Edelman slot or the big Fitz/Marshall slot, just use their attributes to their fullest extent. With Gabriel in the slot I wouldn't want him going over the middle too much, maybe as a 3rd or 4th option on a drag route as the dump off. So I'd probably let Burton and Shaheen take that area when he is there. There is still a lot he can run and set up routes off of them. A few posts and then a post-corner, 5 and 10 yard outs then an out-and-up, a few fly routes then may an outside release curl for 10 yards, etc. The size is a disadvantage for contact but him being so much smaller SHOULD make his COD far better than the bulkier players, and getting separation with his speed should be a top priority for a playcaller when he is in there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sugashane Posted February 17, 2019 Share Posted February 17, 2019 2 minutes ago, Damikeeeee said: Don't sleep on Fournette. Adrian Peterson couldn't stay healthy til he did. That's why he went 8 or whatever. Give Fournette or offense and watch. He will make people eat crow. He was there O this season with Blake (pukes in mouth) Bortles and I think they lost Allen Robinson too. He's good. Fournette is an elite powerback and has so much more he can offer. He. Will. Be. Special. Thats fair. He is obviously talented but just hasn't made the impact I expected. As far as health woes I have just been burned by White, Jay, Long, etc so much I admittedly hold a fairly negative view when it comes to missing games. I still say I liked Derrick Henry more though. Was a BIG fan of his at Bama. Glad to see he got it rolling this last season. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Damikeeeee Posted February 17, 2019 Share Posted February 17, 2019 58 minutes ago, Sugashane said: Thats fair. He is obviously talented but just hasn't made the impact I expected. As far as health woes I have just been burned by White, Jay, Long, etc so much I admittedly hold a fairly negative view when it comes to missing games. I still say I liked Derrick Henry more though. Was a BIG fan of his at Bama. Glad to see he got it rolling this last season. I wasn't a Henry fan. I felt he was a poor man Fournette but people focused on his positives and Fournettes negatives. I get it because when they "faced off" Henry had the far better game. That game also really put Eddie Jacksons physicalty on the map for me. That game also showed me what I love about Fournette, he never gave up. He's was breaking multiple tackles in the backfield and still getting tackled for loss. He's was pass protecting still with effort. A lot of guys quit on that when their not having good games. Like Anthony Miller Fournette has big strong hands and is a natural hands catcher. They're both guys that "pluck it out of the air". A change of scenery could do both guys well. I think our O can make Fournette an elite runner. Howard has shown he can run without a passing attack. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dll2000 Posted February 18, 2019 Share Posted February 18, 2019 On February 16, 2019 at 7:15 AM, abstract_thought said: Reid offenses have typically favored speed over size at the WR position. He sure didnt mind Owens, for a year anyway. Good is good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sugashane Posted February 18, 2019 Share Posted February 18, 2019 8 minutes ago, dll2000 said: He sure didnt mind Owens, for a year anyway. Good is good. Owens wasn't Moss/Tyreek fast but he still has some serious speed too. Outside of Cohen and Gabriel he was faster than anyone else we have on offense IMO. And he has 40-60 pounds on them. I know you didn't say he was slow or anything, more just a general comment as I was an Owns fan. Lol But talent like that talks, you're damn right about that. Get guys like that and you can find a role for them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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