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Is Patrick Mahomes the best young QB (under 30) in the NFL?


tyler735

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1 hour ago, MrOaktown_56 said:

People are ignoring the supporting cast IMO. Or at least not giving it credit. You don't throw for 50 touchdowns unless EVERYTHING is going right. Protection. Weapons. Playcalling. AND QB play.

If you put many good qb's in that offense, I'm not saying you'll see Mahomes like production, but a lot of guys would have career years with that offensive cast. I'm not ready to put him in tier 1 right this moment. He had an unbelievable year, but context matters too. 

Lets see how this plays out going forward. We're obviously all intrigued.

I'll lend credit to this - his supporting cast was really on point, weapons and protection. We saw a slight decline when losing Kareem Hunt, but he was able to adapt with other weapons. 

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Im still sticking by what Ive been saying, Mahomes is 4th behind Goff, Wentz, and Watson.

Im a fan of Mahomes too but when I think of the best there are alot of factors that play into it. Mahomes covers alot of those factors except two so far. One, I want to see him win the big games. So far he has only won one of his biggest games and thats against the Colts in the Divisional Round of the playoffs. Secondly, how do you fair when adversity hits? The adversity Mahomes had to deal with was when he lost his running back Hunt. His team went (4-4) without Hunt. So when some adversity came his way, he was an average starting QB in terms of wins which is mainly what QBs are judged by. So he didnt get the job done in his biggest games of the season in terms of wins and he was average in terms of wins when adversity hit the team.

I get alot of people arent going to think the way I do which is fine because I like debating and I like hearing the way others view it. Thats just my opinion and how I view things. Mahomes has all those other boxes checked. The great thing about Mahomes is this is his first year as a starter and he is young. He can very well move up to being the best but right now he is 4th in my opinion. 

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2 minutes ago, stl4life07 said:

Im still sticking by what Ive been saying, Mahomes is 4th behind Goff, Wentz, and Watson.

Im a fan of Mahomes too but when I think of the best there are alot of factors that play into it. Mahomes covers alot of those factors except two so far. One, I want to see him win the big games. So far he has only won one of his biggest games and thats against the Colts in the Divisional Round of the playoffs. Secondly, how do you fair when adversity hits? The adversity Mahomes had to deal with was when he lost his running back Hunt. His team went (4-4) without Hunt. So when some adversity came his way, he was an average starting QB in terms of wins which is mainly what QBs are judged by. So he didnt get the job done in his biggest games of the season in terms of wins and he was average in terms of wins when adversity hit the team.

I get alot of people arent going to think the way I do which is fine because I like debating and I like hearing the way others view it. Thats just my opinion and how I view things. Mahomes has all those other boxes checked. The great thing about Mahomes is this is his first year as a starter and he is young. He can very well move up to being the best but right now he is 4th in my opinion. 

I would first like to say that the Chiefs didn't go 4-4 without Hunt, whether including the playoffs or not.

Secondly, you cannot be a good evalualor if you don't understand that at the end of the day, this is a team sport and you cannot judge a QB's performance regardless of the fact his team wins or not. This can only be part of the evaluation.

He is the one who made those losses close games as the defense was a complete sieve at times.

As for the rest, I get the feeling that you don't want Mahomes to be the best but trust me, everything that you doubt him he will prove you wrong. He is a special one.

 

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37 minutes ago, Buckweath said:

I would first like to say that the Chiefs didn't go 4-4 without Hunt, whether including the playoffs or not.

Secondly, you cannot be a good evalualor if you don't understand that at the end of the day, this is a team sport and you cannot judge a QB's performance regardless of the fact his team wins or not. This can only be part of the evaluation.

He is the one who made those losses close games as the defense was a complete sieve at times.

As for the rest, I get the feeling that you don't want Mahomes to be the best but trust me, everything that you doubt him he will prove you wrong. He is a special one.

 

My bad the Chiefs went (4-3) which is slightly better than average. Its still dont what is expected from the best young QB and the MVP of the league. I get that its a team sport but we both have seen QBs carry their teams with far less talent and much worst adversity being placed upon them. Also we have seen QBs rise up and win big games. Mahomes can learn and grow from this season so when I say I want to see him learn and win the big games and win despite adversity thrown is way thats not a bad thing. It just shows he aint perfect. 

You putting words in my mouth about me not wanting to Mahomes to be the best. Just because Im not crowning him right now based on my observation doesnt mean I want him to fail. Again everyone has their own observation but Im not going to jump to conclusions and automatically say they dont want someone to be the best. Thats asinine but if thats how you feel then I cant help that. Thats on you not me.  

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1 hour ago, stl4life07 said:

Im still sticking by what Ive been saying, Mahomes is 4th behind Goff, Wentz, and Watson.

Im a fan of Mahomes too but when I think of the best there are alot of factors that play into it. Mahomes covers alot of those factors except two so far. One, I want to see him win the big games. So far he has only won one of his biggest games and thats against the Colts in the Divisional Round of the playoffs. Secondly, how do you fair when adversity hits? The adversity Mahomes had to deal with was when he lost his running back Hunt. His team went (4-4) without Hunt. So when some adversity came his way, he was an average starting QB in terms of wins which is mainly what QBs are judged by. So he didnt get the job done in his biggest games of the season in terms of wins and he was average in terms of wins when adversity hit the team.

Using your two knocks against Mahomes - how can you put Watson/Wentz higher? 

Watson hasn’t done squat in the playoffs, last I checked. Neither has Wentz, and there’s an argument to be made that the Eagles actually got better this past year when he went out. Even Goff hasn’t exactly been great in the playoffs thus far. Even with the ending last week, he’s 2-1 with ~55% completion, 2 touchdowns and 1 pick (in three games).

You can have them in any order you want (Goff #1, obviously) but A) using wins as the sole basis of an argument between players isn’t smart, and B) use the same criteria across the board with at least a semblance of context.

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1 minute ago, Yin-Yang said:

Using your two knocks against Mahomes - how can you put Watson/Wentz higher? 

Watson hasn’t done squat in the playoffs, last I checked. Neither has Wentz, and there’s an argument to be made that the Eagles actually got better this past year when he went out. Even Goff hasn’t exactly been great in the playoffs thus far. Even with the ending last week, he’s 2-1 with ~55% completion, 2 touchdowns and 1 pick (in three games).

You can have them in any order you want (Goff #1, obviously) but A) using wins as the sole basis of an argument between players isn’t smart, and B) use the same criteria across the board with at least a semblance of context.

Im glad you brought that up. Again Im not saying Mahomes is terrible. In a vacuum Mahomes, Watson, Goff, and Wentz are all talented guys and 10yrs from now it wouldnt shock me if either QB be considered the best in the NFL. As it stands today we have seen Goff, Wentz, and Watson face much more adversity and still have success. I dont want to anyone to take this the wrong way but out of all these QBs, Mahomes have been "spoon fed". He had to opportunity to sit on the bench for practically a year and learn and develop under Reid and Smith on how to be a successful QB. When he got the chance to be the full time starter the Chiefs loaded him with more weapons. Is it wrong for me to say ok, if he is THE BEST and the absolute perfect situation was placed in front of him, why did he lose twice to the Patriots, at Seattle, home against the Chargers, and at the Rams? Those were 4 of his 5 biggest games of the season and he couldnt win but one which was a perfect situation versus the Colts a dome team in horrible conditions on the road. 

Again I know how talented he is and he is doing unbelievable things but the NFL is results driven mainly for the QB position. If Mahomes played WR or DE then yeah look at his stats and talent. This season he hasnt won in the biggest games but one and when he was faced with the only adversity all season long which was losing Hunt the Chiefs went (4-3). We praise Brady and Brees throughout their career because they were able to do more with less and still win. I dont expect to see Mahomes turn the ball over 5 times against the Rams, 2x in the last two drives when the game is on the line. I dont expect them to get shutout in the 1st half against the Patriots. I dont expect them to blow a 14pt lead in 5 minutes at home to the Chargers. I get it that its a team sport but when Mahomes have the ball I expect him to not allow those things to happen IF he is the best overall. Im was a HUGE Peyton fan when he was in the league and I expected the same thing from him. Again everyone has their opinion and I like to hear them and debate them but thats just how I see it. We can look at the Mahomes debate from every angle. You can throw for 5000yds 50tds, throw no look passes, side arm passes, left handed throws, and win MVP. Im looking at, the biggest games of the season, did you win? When adversity come your way whether its an injury or one of your best players are missing, did you manage to overcome and still win? Not everyone is going to win Superbowls but (4-3) without Hunt and (1-6) in the biggest games isnt going to cut it for me. 

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4 hours ago, stl4life07 said:

Im glad you brought that up. Again Im not saying Mahomes is terrible. In a vacuum Mahomes, Watson, Goff, and Wentz are all talented guys and 10yrs from now it wouldnt shock me if either QB be considered the best in the NFL. As it stands today we have seen Goff, Wentz, and Watson face much more adversity and still have success. I dont want to anyone to take this the wrong way but out of all these QBs, Mahomes have been "spoon fed". He had to opportunity to sit on the bench for practically a year and learn and develop under Reid and Smith on how to be a successful QB. When he got the chance to be the full time starter the Chiefs loaded him with more weapons. Is it wrong for me to say ok, if he is THE BEST and the absolute perfect situation was placed in front of him, why did he lose twice to the Patriots, at Seattle, home against the Chargers, and at the Rams? Those were 4 of his 5 biggest games of the season and he couldnt win but one which was a perfect situation versus the Colts a dome team in horrible conditions on the road. 

Again I know how talented he is and he is doing unbelievable things but the NFL is results driven mainly for the QB position. If Mahomes played WR or DE then yeah look at his stats and talent. This season he hasnt won in the biggest games but one and when he was faced with the only adversity all season long which was losing Hunt the Chiefs went (4-3). We praise Brady and Brees throughout their career because they were able to do more with less and still win. I dont expect to see Mahomes turn the ball over 5 times against the Rams, 2x in the last two drives when the game is on the line. I dont expect them to get shutout in the 1st half against the Patriots. I dont expect them to blow a 14pt lead in 5 minutes at home to the Chargers. I get it that its a team sport but when Mahomes have the ball I expect him to not allow those things to happen IF he is the best overall. Im was a HUGE Peyton fan when he was in the league and I expected the same thing from him. Again everyone has their opinion and I like to hear them and debate them but thats just how I see it. We can look at the Mahomes debate from every angle. You can throw for 5000yds 50tds, throw no look passes, side arm passes, left handed throws, and win MVP. Im looking at, the biggest games of the season, did you win? When adversity come your way whether its an injury or one of your best players are missing, did you manage to overcome and still win? Not everyone is going to win Superbowls but (4-3) without Hunt and (1-6) in the biggest games isnt going to cut it for me. 

Do we not count when his lost his RG? Or his C? Or his LG? Or his #2 WR? Hunt wasn't the only guy that was injured or missing throughout the season.

Also really, the main adversity that Mahomes overcame was having a horrendous defense. You talk like he had it easy winning games. He didn't. His challenge, his adversity, was that if he and the offense didn't win the game, no one would.

The big games thing is also stupid. You call the games against Seattle or the Rams big, neither of those games meant anything to the playoff race. We lost both of those games and each time retained our #1 spot in the AFC. Those games didn't matter. They were high profile, they had a special time slot, but they weren't important to the result of the season. The divisional round win, some of the early season games he won against LAC or Pittsburgh, or just generally games within the division and conference, were bigger games for the season.

 

This is just reaching for a reason not to call the guy who threw for 5000 yards and 50 TD and will probably win MVP the best. You can talk about him being spoiled or set up well, but Goff was too this year, and didn't have the same kind of season.

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24 minutes ago, Jakuvious said:

Do we not count when his lost his RG? Or his C? Or his LG? Or his #2 WR? Hunt wasn't the only guy that was injured or missing throughout the season.

Also really, the main adversity that Mahomes overcame was having a horrendous defense. You talk like he had it easy winning games. He didn't. His challenge, his adversity, was that if he and the offense didn't win the game, no one would.

The big games thing is also stupid. You call the games against Seattle or the Rams big, neither of those games meant anything to the playoff race. We lost both of those games and each time retained our #1 spot in the AFC. Those games didn't matter. They were high profile, they had a special time slot, but they weren't important to the result of the season. The divisional round win, some of the early season games he won against LAC or Pittsburgh, or just generally games within the division and conference, were bigger games for the season.

 

This is just reaching for a reason not to call the guy who threw for 5000 yards and 50 TD and will probably win MVP the best. You can talk about him being spoiled or set up well, but Goff was too this year, and didn't have the same kind of season.

Idk but was the Chiefs RG C LG and #2 WR All-Pro, leading rusher, or Pro Bowler? Hunt was more of an impactful loss than those other guys you name. One might say that if the Chiefs had Hunt they would be in the Superbowl. Its the same reason why people were doubting the Rams after they lost Kupp because it was an impactful loss. Except the Rams was able to overcome the loss of Kupp on offense and still make it to the Superbowl just to give you an example. And again Im not saying Mahomes HAVE to win the Superbowl but going (4-3) without Hunt I feel like is ok but if Mahomes is the best QB and MVP which everyone is saying he is the best. Im saying he is one of the best and certainly the MVP, you have to do better than (4-3). Thats just my opinion. 

I think the big games thing isnt stupid. The Rams was a big game because it was the two best teams in the NFL on the national stage. It was nearly the Superbowl matchup. The hype of course was like a Superbowl. Mahomes turned the ball over 5 times and he turned it over in big spots too. The Seahawks game was big because the Chiefs just lost to the Chargers so their top seed in the conference and homefield advantage in the playoffs was at steak. You are right though those losses didnt matter in the end because the Chiefs had help from the Chargers who lost to the Ravens Week 16. Had the Chargers beat the Ravens then guess what? That loss to Seattle wouldve hurt. Plus in those big games it shows alot about a QB. Why do you think Cousins take so much heat. Nobody cares if he beats the Cardinals at noon on a Sunday. When he fails to beat the Saints on Sunday Night Football thats when people look at him differently. So again the big game thing isnt stupid.

Goff was setup well and while he didnt have the same season Mahomes had, his season was still pretty good AND he has the wins most importantly the big wins. Games like going to New Orleans and beating Mahomes in that atmosphere is HUGE. The stigma of Goff cant get the job done is phony because of this season. Again I take nothing away from what Mahomes did. I didnt say his season was a failure and Im not saying he isnt one of the best. Im just not going to say he is the best because I still want to see more. I saw everything I need to see from Goff this year. I saw everything I needed to see from Wentz last season before he got hurt. Had he not gotten hurt he wouldve been in the Superbowl last year as well. Wentz was winning the big game last season and has fought through adversity. Same thing as Goff. Watson fought through adversity and took the Texans to nearly the 2nd seed in the AFC had they not lost to the Eagles. So thats all Im saying. I get everyone loves the new hotness just like everyone loved Luck coming out and eventually another QB is going to come along and Year 1 everyone is going to love him too. Maybe Tua, maybe Lawrence, maybe Murray. So I get the love for Mahomes and trust me I love Mahomes too but I cant say he is the best when he hasnt checked all of my boxes.  

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4 hours ago, stl4life07 said:

You are right though those losses didnt matter in the end because the Chiefs had help from the Chargers who lost to the Ravens Week 16. Had the Chargers beat the Ravens then guess what? That loss to Seattle wouldve hurt.

Chargers lost to the Ravens before we lost to Seattle. Game was meaningless from the moment it started.

The adversity bit isn't worth replying to. You're using that word arbitrarily when and where you wanted as a magical way to say Mahomes didn't do something for you.

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20 hours ago, ET80 said:

I'll say this - I think if the Chiefs drafted Deshaun Watson and the Texans drafted Pat Mahomes, we'd be having this conversation about Watson. Mahomes would be good, but not revered in the same light.

The difference between Andy Reid and Bill O'Brien is significant.

First of, just to get this out the way. I never said best QB. I said best OB B|. It was a joke comment and I wanted to see how people would actually catch on to it. 

Clearly Mahomes looks like the best right NOW because he has been the hot topic. We have seen the same in the past with Luck, Cam and hell even Kaepernick and Foles.

I'm not going to say you're wrong about Watson being seen in a better light if had he played in an offense led by Reid because you're not, but let's not overstate it either. Better? Yes. 52 touchdowns better? I don't think so.

What Mahomes did this year and HOW he did it was nothing short of amazing, regardless of his weapons an coaching staff. Especially considering he did it against some tough defenses.  He also started something that I believe will be a new wave with the no look passes that make it harder for coverage LBers and safeties to play a QB's eye's.  

Again, not saying Watson would not have better with Reid than he was O'Brien, that part is true.

BOB is terrible lol. I watched alot of Texans games this year. I remember going back and seeing a 3rd and 4 (or 6) passing play where he had the RB running a route 4 yards AFTER a chip block while other the FOUR WR's were running deep routes with the shortest being 11 yards(IIRC).

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1 hour ago, Jakuvious said:

Chargers lost to the Ravens before we lost to Seattle. Game was meaningless from the moment it started.

The adversity bit isn't worth replying to. You're using that word arbitrarily when and where you wanted as a magical way to say Mahomes didn't do something for you.

Watson gets credit for almost taking the Texans to the #2 seed, and looking underwhelming during his only playoff appearance that was a loss.

Mahomes on the other hand, after actually getting the #1 seed and winning a playoff game, gets knocked because he “couldn’t win big games”.

Wentz, apparently, would have brought last year’s Eagles to the super bowl and gets a pass this year, despite playing with a roster that was deep/stacked from top to bottom and a coach who (along with McVay) was viewed as the next big thing.

Mahomes, playing with a significantly worse defense, gets no pass for taking the dynasty-Pats to overtime in the AFCCG. 

Goff gets the nod because the Rams win games, despite playing with a largely better team and underwhelming performances to boot. 

Mahomes gets negged because he and the offense couldn’t will the team into a SB. 

No real point in taking this seriously.

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