Is Patrick Mahomes the best young QB (under 30) in the NFL?

[Riftty]

On 1/29/2019 at 3:23 AM, ET80 said:

I'll say this - I think if the Chiefs drafted Deshaun Watson and the Texans drafted Pat Mahomes, we'd be having this conversation about Watson. Mahomes would be good, but not revered in the same light.

The difference between Andy Reid and Bill O'Brien is significant.

100% agree with this. Andy Reid really doesn't get enough credit for what he does. If people Give Mcvay credit for Goff, Reid deserves just as much for Mahomes.

And let's not forget Watson was on a heck of a pace before he got hurt, and sometimes it takes a year or two to fully bounce back from that. I think Watson will give Mahomes a run for his money next year.

[ET80]

6 hours ago, JustAnotherFan said:

What Mahomes did this year and HOW he did it was nothing short of amazing, regardless of his weapons an coaching staff. 

I think you're underselling this - not trying to turn this into a Watson v Mahomes thread, but Mahomes has better components at every spot, save for #1 WR. Not just better - but SIGNIFICANTLY better at OL, TE and HC.

That's a huge advantage.

6 hours ago, JustAnotherFan said:

I'm not going to say you're wrong about Watson being seen in a better light if had he played in an offense led by Reid because you're not, but let's not overstate it either. Better? Yes. 52 touchdowns better? I don't think so.

Let's remember, he was on a 43 TD pace with O'Brien that rookie season (when everyone was talking about him as the next big thing). I don't think his numbers would be identical to what Mahomes did, but there would probably be an offset with the rushing stats in Watson's favor.

He's also a year removed from a torn ACL, and still put up 4,000/25 along with 500 rushing yards... So it's not a stretch to think this year was an exception.

6 hours ago, JustAnotherFan said:

BOB is terrible lol. I watched alot of Texans games this year. I remember going back and seeing a 3rd and 4 (or 6) passing play where he had the RB running a route 4 yards AFTER a chip block while other the FOUR WR's were running deep routes with the shortest being 11 yards(IIRC).

And the one guy who was improving Watson (Sean Ryan) is leaving, so I'm expecting Watson to crater out in a spectacular fashion.

6 hours ago, Yin-Yang said:

Watson gets credit for almost taking the Texans to the #2 seed, and looking underwhelming during his only playoff appearance that was a loss.

He is? That's a surprise to me, I remember him getting lambasted for doing his first down signal while down 21-0 (completely agree with bashing him for that BTW) and getting bashed for being on the Clemson sidelines the Monday following the loss to the Colts (completely agree on this as well, but willing to shrug it off). This is a far cry from the MVP talk that was going on this time last year, it's very safe to say that the honeymoon is over in the Watson era and people are more prone to dislike him vs like him.

Nobody is praising the guy anymore. Part of that has to do with Mahomes being the new darling of the league.

[stl4life07]

9 hours ago, Jakuvious said:

Chargers lost to the Ravens before we lost to Seattle. Game was meaningless from the moment it started.

The adversity bit isn't worth replying to. You're using that word arbitrarily when and where you wanted as a magical way to say Mahomes didn't do something for you.

Looks like the Chiefs was doing great to me before Hunt got released. They were (9-2) with Hunt and (4-3) without Hunt. They had the exact same defense all season. Its only when I bring up how the Chiefs struggled to win without Hunt does Mahomes defense play a big factor. You can say what you want but again thats just my opinion. There is nothing wrong with me pointing out that I want to see Mahomes succeed when face with adversity or win the biggest games of not only the season but possibly his career so far? 

 

[Soko]

2 hours ago, ET80 said:

He is? That's a surprise to me, I remember him getting lambasted for doing his first down signal while down 21-0 (completely agree with bashing him for that BTW) and getting bashed for being on the Clemson sidelines the Monday following the loss to the Colts (completely agree on this as well, but willing to shrug it off). This is a far cry from the MVP talk that was going on this time last year, it's very safe to say that the honeymoon is over in the Watson era and people are more prone to dislike him vs like him.

Nobody is praising the guy anymore. Part of that has to do with Mahomes being the new darling of the league.

 

20 hours ago, stl4life07 said:

Im still sticking by what Ive been saying, Mahomes is 4th behind Goff, Wentz, and Watson.

 

20 hours ago, stl4life07 said:

As it stands today we have seen Goff, Wentz, and Watson face much more adversity and still have success. 

 

15 hours ago, stl4life07 said:

I saw everything I need to see from Goff this year. I saw everything I needed to see from Wentz last season before he got hurt. Had he not gotten hurt he wouldve been in the Superbowl last year as well. Wentz was winning the big game last season and has fought through adversity. Same thing as Goff. Watson fought through adversity and took the Texans to nearly the 2nd seed in the AFC had they not lost to the Eagles. So thats all Im saying. I get everyone loves the new hotness just like everyone loved Luck coming out and eventually another QB is going to come along and Year 1 everyone is going to love him too. Maybe Tua, maybe Lawrence, maybe Murray. So I get the love for Mahomes and trust me I love Mahomes too but I cant say he is the best when he hasnt checked all of my boxes.  

ET, the part you responded to was largely a reaction to these. If we’re using big game performances/wins in a vacuum to determine QB quality (which is a stupid, stupid thing to do) then Mahomes shouldn’t be behind Watson. It makes no sense to praise the latter for almost getting the second seed and losing in his single playoff appearance but then claim the former can’t get it done when he not only got further, but actually beat the team that beat the Texans.

I guess you could say Watson faced more adversity because of his injury in 2017 and worse offensive supporting cast/coaching, but then it’s important to point out the talent disparity on defense and the difference in success (both statistically and in the W-L/playoff column). It’s not like the two are on equal ground in those categories and Mahomes’ cast blows Watson’s out of the water. The talent and coaching difference show, obviously, but I’m not going to flip flop the two because of it.

The guy’s just picking and choosing which criteria to use on a whim.

Edited January 30, 2019 by Yin-Yang

[ET80]

26 minutes ago, Yin-Yang said:

ET, the part you responded to was largely a reaction to these. If we’re using big game performances/wins in a vacuum to determine QB quality (which is a stupid, stupid thing to do) then Mahomes shouldn’t be behind Watson. It makes no sense to praise the latter for almost getting the second seed and losing in his single playoff appearance but then claim the former can’t get it done when he not only got further, but actually beat the team that beat the Texans.

Aha, got it. That's very fair and reasonable.

26 minutes ago, Yin-Yang said:

I guess you could say Watson faced more adversity because of his injury in 2017 and worse offensive supporting cast/coaching, but then it’s important to point out the talent disparity on defense and the difference in success (both statistically and in the W-L/playoff column). It’s not like the two are on equal ground in those categories and Mahomes’ cast blows Watson’s out of the water. The talent and coaching difference show, obviously, but I’m not going to flip flop the two because of it.

I wasn't really taking in team performances when sharing my thoughts, was only looking at offensive production...

[Buckweath]

10 hours ago, Riftty said:

100% agree with this. Andy Reid really doesn't get enough credit for what he does. If people Give Mcvay credit for Goff, Reid deserves just as much for Mahomes.

And let's not forget Watson was on a heck of a pace before he got hurt, and sometimes it takes a year or two to fully bounce back from that. I think Watson will give Mahomes a run for his money next year.

It's been said many times that Mahomes was put in a perfect situation. Reid has gotten all the credit he deserves. I don't even know where you get that Reid doesn't get the credit that he deserves. Everyone says that he is a QB whisperer.

But 50TD-5000 yards and MVP in his first season starting shows how Mahomes is an exceptional talent. He is/would be better than Goff, Watson, etc. regardless of the supporting cast, not a single doubt in my mind.

You see him play, he is exceptional.

[LuckyNumber11]

I want at least a two years sample size tbh. I feel like we've had a lot of one hit wonders lately

[jjab360]

Rams fan here and I believe in Goff, what he has accomplished, and the direction that he is heading in under McVay.

 

Some of the things Mahomes has done are just otherworldly though, I would be lying if I said Goff was the better QB right now. That being said, we have seen some statistical anomalies as of late, the most relevant one I can think of is Foles in his 27-2 season. He was just on fire that year and never could find that same rhythm outside of his Superbowl run. Mahomes does have the pure arm talent that Foles never had though, so we'll see.

[Riftty]

3 hours ago, Buckweath said:

It's been said many times that Mahomes was put in a perfect situation. Reid has gotten all the credit he deserves. I don't even know where you get that Reid doesn't get the credit that he deserves. Everyone says that he is a QB whisperer.

But 50TD-5000 yards and MVP in his first season starting shows how Mahomes is an exceptional talent. He is/would be better than Goff, Watson, etc. regardless of the supporting cast, not a single doubt in my mind.

You see him play, he is exceptional.

I was just more saying that Mahomes wouldn't be where he is at without Reid, if you put Mahomes on the browns with Hue, he isn't getting any where near those numbers, and we all know it. So no Reid doesn't get enough credit.

And yeah Mahomes is an amazing QB, he is the only QB I would for sure take over Goff in that 25 and under category.

[MrOaktown_56]

On 1/29/2019 at 5:54 AM, ET80 said:

Now, I'm a HUGE Trevor Lawrence fan - but I have to see where he lands when he makes his way to the NFL. 

If he ends up in a dreadful situation, I'll have to lower my expectations. (No offense, Las Vegas).

Wait till we add Jerry jeudy and deandre swift in the draft next year ...

[rocky_rams]

Watson = Mahomes 

If Watson was on the Chiefs under all the same circumstances, I would imagine Watson puts up about the same numbers 

Watson has much less talent around him. Not to mention the subpar coaches

one does wonder where Watson would be with someone like a Kyle Shanahan instead of Bill O’Brien 

maybe if the Texans stink it up next season, they fire O’Brien and hire Eric Bienemy as their next HC?

Edited January 31, 2019 by rocky_rams

[JAF-N72EX]

17 hours ago, ET80 said:

I think you're underselling this - not trying to turn this into a Watson v Mahomes thread, but Mahomes has better components at every spot, save for #1 WR. Not just better - but SIGNIFICANTLY better at OL, TE and HC.

That's a huge advantage.

I'm not overselling anything. But I do think you're underselling what Mahomes did this year (and you're not the only one). 

I agree Mahomes had a better supporting cast overall than Watson. But the part of my post you quoted in response had nothing with supporting cast. It was how Mahomes played the game. Which was briefly explained in the same sentence that you conveniently left out of my quote.

 Especially considering he did it against some tough defenses.  He also started something that I believe will be a new wave with the no look passes that make it harder for coverage LBers and safeties to play a QB's eye's.

As I mentioned, Mahomes no-look passes with such accuracy and touch are something than you can't teach (AKA coach) and is something I could very well see soon becoming revolutionary. Mahomes did this. Not Watson or Mitch. 

It's a VERY smart and practical way to play QB and extremely invaluable attribute IF a player can pull it off on a consistent basis. Mahomes has shown it can work for one year and can be a very effective tool to add to any QB's arsenal. Now he only has to show that it can work on a consistently. And after that, I guarantee we will start to see MORE QB's following suit in the future and practicing the same because of it's value. ESPECIALLY with QB's who are more mobile. 

I'm actually surprised I haven't seen any coverage on this aspect through the media yet. It will though. 

18 hours ago, ET80 said:

Let's remember, he was on a 43 TD pace with O'Brien that rookie season (when everyone was talking about him as the next big thing). I don't think his numbers would be identical to what Mahomes did, but there would probably be an offset with the rushing stats in Watson's favor.

He's also a year removed from a torn ACL, and still put up 4,000/25 along with 500 rushing yards... So it's not a stretch to think this year was an exception.

See, I always hate these "on pace stat" arguments because it's also assuming the player would do just as well as he would have and that is usually not the case. Ryan Fitzpatrick for pete's sake was also "on pace" for 44 passing TD's this season after his first 4 starts this year. That would have placed him in at 2nd place in the LEAGUE in passing TD's and 5 TD's higher than the next.

Now, would you say that FItz is a QB who you want your team to become a starter because of "on pace" statistics?

Also, 50 is also a SIGNIFICANT difference from 43.

Using on-pace stats is fine to use for a few games, but to use them for 9 games is ridiculous. 

19 hours ago, ET80 said:

And the one guy who was improving Watson (Sean Ryan) is leaving, so I'm expecting Watson to crater out in a spectacular fashion.

As a bears fan who has to deal with several terrible OC's and poor QB coaching over the years I hope that doesn't happen with Watson. 

 

 

 

 

[Kip Smithers]

5 hours ago, rocky_rams said:

Watson = Mahomes 

If Watson was on the Chiefs under all the same circumstances, I would imagine Watson puts up about the same numbers 

Watson has much less talent around him. Not to mention the subpar coaches

one does wonder where Watson would be with someone like a Kyle Shanahan instead of Bill O’Brien 

maybe if the Texans stink it up next season, they fire O’Brien and hire Eric Bienemy as their next HC?

Yeah, no. Mahomes is a better passer. Deshaun still has too much of a propensity to run.

[SmittyBacall]

54 minutes ago, Kip Smithers said:

Yeah, no. Mahomes is a better passer. Deshaun still has too much of a propensity to run.

I would assume he was running for his life behind one of if not the worst offensive lines in football.

[Buckweath]

7 hours ago, rocky_rams said:

Watson = Mahomes 

If Watson was on the Chiefs under all the same circumstances, I would imagine Watson puts up about the same numbers 

Watson has much less talent around him. Not to mention the subpar coaches

one does wonder where Watson would be with someone like a Kyle Shanahan instead of Bill O’Brien 

maybe if the Texans stink it up next season, they fire O’Brien and hire Eric Bienemy as their next HC?

Just no. Not at all.

It's clear you don't realize how special Mahomes is. Or maybe you just don't want him to be.