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Would you consider these two at #12 and #30?

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2 hours ago, Cheech said:

I'm imagining Rodgers being able to step up into a clean pocket because his interior OL can actually keep him clean.  

I'm imagining a guard getting to the 2nd level on a screen and actually blocking a linebacker with 33 patiently waiting to slice through the secondary.

 

Can you really say with a straight face that WR is a bigger need than guard?  Byron freaking Bell started for us last year.  Give McCray and Patrick all the props for battling, but my goodness, the guard position cost us at least 5 offensive plays per game where they simply ****ed the whole thing up.  

I don't care if it is a free agent or early pick (*preferably if it is an early pick you get Williams or Risner who can play RG for a year and then move to RT) but that position needs an upgrade in the worst way.

agreed.  doesn't matter how we get another guard (or 2), we need upgrades whether through free agency and/or draft.  just not totally convinced you have to draft one in the first or even second round.

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6 hours ago, Cheech said:

I'm imagining Rodgers being able to step up into a clean pocket because his interior OL can actually keep him clean.  

I'm imagining a guard getting to the 2nd level on a screen and actually blocking a linebacker with 33 patiently waiting to slice through the secondary.

 

Can you really say with a straight face that WR is a bigger need than guard?  

You don't have to image the OL keeping Rodgers clean because they did it just last year, at least when he would get the ball out of his hands in a timely manner.

Packers had the highest percentage of passing plays last year (so defenses knew what was coming) and the Packers still provided the 4th longest pass protection time allowed with the 6 least amount of pressures, that pretty damn efficient pass blocking!

They really should of run the ball more to keep defenses guessing more.

Most of Rodgers pressures were coverage pressures... because either the WRs weren't getting open or Rodgers wasn't finding them... the OL take the blame because Rodgers got touched but they we're the least responsible for a number of those pressure and hits... there is only so much time you can stall and QB needs to get rid of the ball which is why he had so many dang throw aways.

So yes last year a WR to step up was needed more than an OG and if you noticed the offense worked with WR Allison playing and started to fail once he was injured.

That being said the bigger problem was that Rodgers and the rookie WRs were clearly on different pages, more than lack of talent of WR... Where the OL problem could be more lack of talent and pass blocking all the time, puts the max pressure on them because pass blocking is harder than run blocking and if the defense knows it's coming that's even worse.

Example some we're ranting and raving about the Rams OL.... a very talented run blocking OL, but when teams stopped the run and forced them to pass, they struggled a lot more.

So assuming the QB/WR get on the same page, a new scheme should help the WRs get open sooner and just calling more running plays should help the OGs, and that's even before upgrading them.

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18 hours ago, Beast said:

Packers had the highest percentage of passing plays last year (so defenses knew what was coming) and the Packers still provided the 4th longest pass protection time allowed with the 6 least amount of pressures, that pretty damn efficient pass blocking!

 

I could give a **** less what the stats say for pass blocking efficiency.  We have the best pass blocking tackle due in the NFL.  The 4th longest pass pro time allowed has everything to do with 12 extending plays and nothing to do with the fact that our RG play last year was absolute trash.  

Right guard was quite possibly the worst position on offense last year, if not the entire team.  Bell consistently whiffed on blocks and McCray consistently got walked  back into 12's lap in pass pro.  Taylor took a step back as well where he looked league average at best.  If you want to see 12 at his best, he needs a running game that he can trust and a pocket that he can step up into to make a play.  There's a reason we led the league in passing.  Last year if 12 had the option to throw vs. run you better believe he was going to drop back and throw.  If we could actually trust the interior OL to block up a running play, the ENTIRE offense would be better.  My goodness - I can't even imagine how bad our running game would have been last year had 33 not manufactured yards all by himself.  

Look at who Tom Brady has for his freaking receiver group.  He'd be gushing over the talent of the Packer receiving group if he had it.  The difference there is that his interior OL gave Brady time to step up in the pocket against one of the nastiest combinations of interior DL in the league.  

 

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15 minutes ago, Cheech said:

I could give a **** less what the stats say for pass blocking efficiency.  We have the best pass blocking tackle due in the NFL.  The 4th longest pass pro time allowed has everything to do with 12 extending plays and nothing to do with the fact that our RG play last year was absolute trash.  

Right guard was quite possibly the worst position on offense last year, if not the entire team.  Bell consistently whiffed on blocks and McCray consistently got walked  back into 12's lap in pass pro.  Taylor took a step back as well where he looked league average at best.  If you want to see 12 at his best, he needs a running game that he can trust and a pocket that he can step up into to make a play.  There's a reason we led the league in passing.  Last year if 12 had the option to throw vs. run you better believe he was going to drop back and throw.  If we could actually trust the interior OL to block up a running play, the ENTIRE offense would be better.  My goodness - I can't even imagine how bad our running game would have been last year had 33 not manufactured yards all by himself.  

Look at who Tom Brady has for his freaking receiver group.  He'd be gushing over the talent of the Packer receiving group if he had it.  The difference there is that his interior OL gave Brady time to step up in the pocket against one of the nastiest combinations of interior DL in the league.  

 

Not so sure about that.  While he'd surely love Adams (what QB wouldn't), Graham is a downgrade from Gronk and James White is substantially better than any pass catching back that we've got.  The WRs they seem to prefer are significantly different than what our roster is full of.  We've got tall fast guys who are bad or really mediocre as route runners (Moore, ESB, MVS).  They seem to prefer  short quick guys with MOST being excellent route runners (Hogan, Edelman, Amendola, Dorsett, Welker, Troy Brown, Deion Branch, etc).  The closest WR to MVS they had on their current roster they moved to RB.  When was the last time a tall, slow gumpy WR like Allison had success in New England?  Brady also looks to prefer vet WRs.  He's had terrible success with rookie WRs and developing WRs over his career.  Bethal Johnson, Deion Branch, Chad Johnson, Brandon Tate, Taylor Price and Aaron Dobson were all 2nd or 3rd round WRs and only Branch ever developed into anything.  Since Brady's been in New England I think the only WRs they've ever into quality starters were Branch (2) and Edleman (7) (maybe Givens (7)).  On the other hand  the list of vets they've had success with is really long.  Wes Welker, Randy Moss, Danny Amendola, Brandon Lafell, Chris Hogan, Deion Branch, Brandon Lloyd, Donte Stallworth, Reche Caldwell, David Patten, Brandin Cooks, 

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1 hour ago, SSG said:

Not so sure about that.  While he'd surely love Adams (what QB wouldn't), Graham is a downgrade from Gronk and James White is substantially better than any pass catching back that we've got.  The WRs they seem to prefer are significantly different than what our roster is full of.  We've got tall fast guys who are bad or really mediocre as route runners (Moore, ESB, MVS).  They seem to prefer  short quick guys with MOST being excellent route runners (Hogan, Edelman, Amendola, Dorsett, Welker, Troy Brown, Deion Branch, etc).  The closest WR to MVS they had on their current roster they moved to RB.  When was the last time a tall, slow gumpy WR like Allison had success in New England?  Brady also looks to prefer vet WRs.  He's had terrible success with rookie WRs and developing WRs over his career.  Bethal Johnson, Deion Branch, Chad Johnson, Brandon Tate, Taylor Price and Aaron Dobson were all 2nd or 3rd round WRs and only Branch ever developed into anything.  Since Brady's been in New England I think the only WRs they've ever into quality starters were Branch (2) and Edleman (7) (maybe Givens (7)).  On the other hand  the list of vets they've had success with is really long.  Wes Welker, Randy Moss, Danny Amendola, Brandon Lafell, Chris Hogan, Deion Branch, Brandon Lloyd, Donte Stallworth, Reche Caldwell, David Patten, Brandin Cooks, 

This is a stretch.  You know very well what I think of our TE position.  My comment had nothing to do with TE or RB.  The fact that you had to go from Edelman to a TE and RB speaks volumes to the lack of talent at WR after Edelman.

I'll take MVS, EQ, and Kumerow (you just know he'd be a god in NE) over Hogan, Dorsett, and Matthew Slater every day of the week and twice on Sunday.  And we both know Adams is a hell of a lot better than Edelman.  Throw in Allison and this is no contest.

 

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3 hours ago, Cheech said:

I could give a **** less what the stats say for pass blocking efficiency. 

Which just proves your ignorant to anything that doesn't agree with you...

If the facts don't agree with you then you ignore the facts.

 

3 hours ago, Cheech said:

We have the best pass blocking tackle due in the NFL.  The 4th longest pass pro time allowed has everything to do with 12 extending plays and nothing to do with the fact that our RG play last year was absolute trash.  

Right guard was quite possibly the worst position on offense last year, if not the entire team.  Bell consistently whiffed on blocks and McCray consistently got walked  back into 12's lap in pass pro.  Taylor took a step back as well where he looked league average at best.  If you want to see 12 at his best, he needs a running game that he can trust and a pocket that he can step up into to make a play.  There's a reason we led the league in passing.  Last year if 12 had the option to throw vs. run you better believe he was going to drop back and throw.  If we could actually trust the interior OL to block up a running play, the ENTIRE offense would be better.  

And that's just an ignorant lie based on you ignoring the facts. The Packers we're in the top 2 of yards per run average... 

But I'm sure your head stuck in the sand attitude will keep ignoring the facts.

3 hours ago, Cheech said:

My goodness - I can't even imagine how bad our running game would have been last year had 33 not manufactured yards all by himself.  

You completely ignore the rest of the team? Your head is clearly in the sand or up your ....

3 hours ago, Cheech said:

Look at who Tom Brady has for his freaking receiver group.  He'd be gushing over the talent of the Packer receiving group if he had it. 

You completely missed the point, the problem was with the QB/WR not being on the same page and the scheme...

You're completely ignoring that fact...

3 hours ago, Cheech said:

The difference there is that his interior OL gave Brady time to step up in the pocket against one of the nastiest combinations of interior DL in the league.  

Wrong the difference is Brady had one of the shortest release times in football and Rodgers had one of the longest... and the Patriots were actually willing to run the ball both of which took pressure off the OL.... while the Packers put max pressure on their OL.

Brady could find guys open quickly because of great scheme and willinness, to take the short stuff, Rodgers couldn't because he was on a different page than the rookies and if you pull you head out long enough to listen to Rodgers he was blaming the WRs.

But keep ignoring the facts, the scheme, the play calls and Aaron Rodgers himself... I'm sure your simple world where you're always right, facts by damned, feels a lot better than the truth.

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2 hours ago, SSG said:

Not so sure about that.  While he'd surely love Adams (what QB wouldn't), Graham is a downgrade from Gronk and James White is substantially better than any pass catching back that we've got.  The WRs they seem to prefer are significantly different than what our roster is full of.  We've got tall fast guys who are bad or really mediocre as route runners (Moore, ESB, MVS).  They seem to prefer  short quick guys with MOST being excellent route runners (Hogan, Edelman, Amendola, Dorsett, Welker, Troy Brown, Deion Branch, etc).  The closest WR to MVS they had on their current roster they moved to RB.  When was the last time a tall, slow gumpy WR like Allison had success in New England?  Brady also looks to prefer vet WRs.  He's had terrible success with rookie WRs and developing WRs over his career.  Bethal Johnson, Deion Branch, Chad Johnson, Brandon Tate, Taylor Price and Aaron Dobson were all 2nd or 3rd round WRs and only Branch ever developed into anything.  Since Brady's been in New England I think the only WRs they've ever into quality starters were Branch (2) and Edleman (7) (maybe Givens (7)).  On the other hand  the list of vets they've had success with is really long.  Wes Welker, Randy Moss, Danny Amendola, Brandon Lafell, Chris Hogan, Deion Branch, Brandon Lloyd, Donte Stallworth, Reche Caldwell, David Patten, Brandin Cooks, 

You are very correct, also all those veterans are well coached in the scheme, where the Packers rookies coaching was questionable last year as they clearly didn't get the full picture.

Of course it's a read/react system so asking them to read defense before the snaps (on the same page as Rodgers) and then read the defense mid snap (and same page as Rodgers), and react to Rodgers scrambling is a lot for a rookie to take in unless they did something similar in college.

 

It doesn't matter how talented you are, not being on the same page as the veterans hurts ... and MVS talked about that... that the Vets all had multiple years in the system and we're well ahead and getting a new coach/system will help them all get on the same page as they're all learning it together.

 

But the difference between the Packers and Patriots are more coaching and scheme based which should NOT be ignored... to only look at pure talent... as the Packers passed the ball more often than any team, while the Patriots ran the ball among the most and even in the passing game got their RB involved a lot, while the Packers had the RB involved very little.

That is really the big difference in a lot of these new successful schemes including what LaFleur has talked about, take pressure off the QB by getting your RB more involved... 

The Packers did the complete opposite of that.... got their RB involved among the least and paid the price while at least 3 of the final 4 got their RBs involved a TON! (I don't know about the Chiefs).

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8 hours ago, Beast said:

But keep ignoring the facts, the scheme, the play calls and Aaron Rodgers himself... I'm sure your simple world where you're always right, facts by damned, feels a lot better than the truth.

See, the thing is, you're not too far away from it.  You clearly recognized that 12 missed receivers, that he wasn't on the same page as some of the receivers multiple times, that the scheme/MM asked the shots down the field, etc.  If you recognize that, how is it that you are completely blind to the fact that our guard play has been total trash?

The best compliment you could give a guy like McCray is that he worked his butt off to stay in front of his guy.  But he was always in 12's lap.  I don't know how many times 12 had someone coming open only he missed him because he had to reset himself in the pocket because of interior pressure.  

 

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8 hours ago, Beast said:

You are very correct, also all those veterans are well coached in the scheme, where the Packers rookies coaching was questionable last year as they clearly didn't get the full picture.

Of course it's a read/react system so asking them to read defense before the snaps (on the same page as Rodgers) and then read the defense mid snap (and same page as Rodgers), and react to Rodgers scrambling is a lot for a rookie to take in unless they did something similar in college.

 

It doesn't matter how talented you are, not being on the same page as the veterans hurts ... and MVS talked about that... that the Vets all had multiple years in the system and we're well ahead and getting a new coach/system will help them all get on the same page as they're all learning it together.

 

But the difference between the Packers and Patriots are more coaching and scheme based which should NOT be ignored... to only look at pure talent... as the Packers passed the ball more often than any team, while the Patriots ran the ball among the most and even in the passing game got their RB involved a lot, while the Packers had the RB involved very little.

That is really the big difference in a lot of these new successful schemes including what LaFleur has talked about, take pressure off the QB by getting your RB more involved... 

The Packers did the complete opposite of that.... got their RB involved among the least and paid the price while at least 3 of the final 4 got their RBs involved a TON! (I don't know about the Chiefs).

I posted something about this either in this thread or elsewhere.   I suspect these kids need a hell of lot more coaching than Adams, Cobb and Allison.   I'm hoping this new offensive coaching staff will do a better job coaching up these young players and we'll see a much more functioning offense in 2019.

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23 minutes ago, Pugger said:

I posted something about this either in this thread or elsewhere.   I suspect these kids need a hell of lot more coaching than Adams, Cobb and Allison.   I'm hoping this new offensive coaching staff will do a better job coaching up these young players and we'll see a much more functioning offense in 2019.

On the bright side, learning a new system is easier if you don’t have to trouble yourself with unlearning the previous system. 

In the event that our young receivers have learned too much of the old system already, Jeff Janis could be invited back as a coaching consultant to help them achieve a zen-like emptiness of mind in terms of the previous offensive system. 

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11 hours ago, Cheech said:

This is a stretch.  You know very well what I think of our TE position.  My comment had nothing to do with TE or RB.  The fact that you had to go from Edelman to a TE and RB speaks volumes to the lack of talent at WR after Edelman.

I'll take MVS, EQ, and Kumerow (you just know he'd be a god in NE) over Hogan, Dorsett, and Matthew Slater every day of the week and twice on Sunday.  And we both know Adams is a hell of a lot better than Edelman.  Throw in Allison and this is no contest.

 

What's a stretch?  A pass catcher is a pass catcher.  I assumed you meant all pass catchers when you said "receiving group".  My mistake Cheech, that was a poor assumption on my part if you meant just WRs.  That would have been a no brainer conversation not worthy of a reply.  James White lead that NE team in targets, catches and TDs.  Of course he'd take our WRs over theirs if he's able to keep his biggest receiving threat and his HOF TE.  I'd bet if he was picking between Adams and the rest of the WRs on both rosters that it would likely be a pretty easy selection to take Adams who just turned 26.  

We signed Kumerow immedately after he was cut by New England.  He was already there and wasn't able to make a WR core that was minus Julian Edleman at the time.  Unless Bill Belichick is a moron, it's pretty safe to say we do know how good Kumerow would have been in New England.  I just don't see MVS, EQ, Allison or Kumerow being New England's mold of WR.  

Yes you would, (as would I and I've got concerns about this WR core past Adams) but New England has proven that they aren't you, me or the Green Bay Packers.  I've got no idea why but they look to prefer and have the best success with those small, quick, shifty guys who are really good route runners.  I can't explain New England's success without  having anything but mediocre talent at WR.  Speaks to the genius of Belichick and the greatness of Tom Brady.  

Edited by SSG

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13 minutes ago, SSG said:

We signed Kumerow immedately after he was cut by New England.

Lol.  I realized this shortly after I posted it.  :$

Anyway, like you said - who the hell knows how NE does what they do.  Geoff Schwartz highlighted 16 different blocking assignments that they used in the SB.

BB and co. are relentless in their coaching and attention to detail.  I've sworn to never use the Pats as an example of how things should be done, because nobody else in the league is able to replicate it. 

They never pay their pass rushers.  They rarely have traditional talent at WR.  They bench starting CB's in the Super Bowl.  They draft running backs in the first round.  

I absolutely believe that a commitment to the running game would help our interior OL with the pass rush.  We saw what happened to STL when they were forced to throw.  I've never seen Austin Blythe whiff so badly on multiple pass rush sets.  I'm confident that LaFleur will bring balance back to the offense.

But I don't see McCray or Patrick ever becoming guys that could open up the offense to a whole new level.  When the inevitable 3rd and long come around, we're still going to see those guys struggle to keep pressure out of 12's face.  

The receiver group possess raw talent and a much higher ceiling than the group that we currently have at OG.  Better coaching, simplified scheme, play action that allows them an extra second to beat a DB will go a heck of a long way to develop the talent we have at WR.  

 

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5 hours ago, Cheech said:

See, the thing is, you're not too far away from it.  See, the thing is, you're not too far away from it.  You clearly recognized that 12 missed receivers, that he wasn't on the same page as some of the receivers multiple times, that the scheme/MM asked the shots down the field, etc.  If you recognize that, how is it that you are completely blind to the fact that our guard play has been total trash?

I'm on the money while you clearly aren't... as you're creating lies about me being blind, when you're the one clearly  ignoring important factors such as scheme and play calls.

The OGs struggled, I'm not blind to that by why did they struggle? Because when the defense knows what coming and you consistently ask the OL to pass block for 5+ seconds you are putting maximum pressure on them.... if you don't put maximum pressure on them then they'll play better.

The rookie WRs, who didn't have maximum pressure put on them, struggled just as much as the OGs, as they often didn't do what Rodgers or the scheme wanted them to do. Rodgers missed WRs but the WRs also failed to understand the scheme and react correctly to what was going on.

But you stupidly want to give all the credit to the flashy position and all the blame to linemen when that is completely bull****. 

Most NFL OGs can't handle 4.5+ second in pass protection when you're passing it 70% of the time, if they could they probably be at OT instead...

While most groups of WRs are expected to have someone open in that time frame and Adams was getting double and open faster than the rookies on single coverage at times.

So yes a healthy talented WR who understood the system and QB, would of been more helpful last year than a talented OG... did you not notice the offense struggled once Allison and Cobb went down? 

They do need to upgrade OG talent but more importantly they need to stop putting max pressure on the pass protection/QB and need the WRs to mentally understands the system that the QB is running.

Sorry if you can't understand how the players being on the same page would help the system, or how different scheme/play calling put different pressures on different positions.

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Come on now.  I absolutely gave credit to the receivers, 12, and MM's desire to run long developing routes.

This isn't about being able to block for 5 seconds.  This is some pretty basic, just don't **** it up kinda stuff:

Now, I'm not insinuating that these guys were this bad all year.  But 4 to 5 plays a game we'd have a play completely blown up  because of the things you see here.  

If a DT is 4 yards up the field at the same time the QB sets his feet, receivers are going to be missed.

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