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Matthew Slater, HoFer?

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21 hours ago, BleedTheClock said:

Devin Hester and Josh Cribbs deserve the HOF before this dude. Hester will get in, Cribbs won't. Neither will Slater.

agree with that.

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Great call, you beat me to it, I was going to say Cribbs. He literally was a ST unit on his own, there hasn't been a more impactful gunner/returner in the game, he literally affected the field position every time he was on the field. If he were on the Patriots, he would no doubt have HOF talk

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15 hours ago, x0x said:

I get you but it's the Hall of Fame. The Patriots dynasty is talked about as perhaps the greatest in all sports (I don't really agree but just saying) and they will get quasi-Hall of Famers because of it.

I'd put Matt Light in ahead of Slater but buddy didn't have the All-Pros. Presenting a 4-time (if he gets it) Super Bowl champions as a member of the Patriots dynasty and 4-time All-Pros Matthew Slater is conceivable. Take Russ Grimm for example, now he was great when he was on but it wasn't a very long prime period and he was a guard. He didn't even start 2 of the 3 Super Bowls he got a ring for but it didn't matter. John Riggins was the only Hall of Famer from those Skins teams and Grimm was coaching and visible in the league so he got in. Joe Jacoby actually starts all 3 Super Bowl victories and he's still not in but probably will be on a seniors ballot.

Those kind of cases make me look at this and think he has a shot with 4 rings. Because 4 rings is special, very few players get them on the field (about a dozen) and even less as starters. Now you got Matt Millen as an example but Millen wasn't a starter and no all-pros (legitimate ones) and he got them on the Raiders, 49ers and Skins with being closest associated to Raiders who got their guys in.

So right now you got Brady, Gronkowski and probably Gostkowski. Ty Law just got in and Vinatieri is a lock but now played more seasons for the Colts. Maybe those 5 is enough with Richard Seymour looking good too. I don't know, but those all-pros and being a Pats player with 4 rings looks appetizing.

Are you suggesting that Grimm got into the HOF because of the  rings? Because unless you have something to back that up, that's a leap that has no backing. He was a three time first team all pro, 4 time pro bowler. It's very possible that the merits of his induction were based on that. It's not unprecedented for the HOF to give elite players with very short careers an induction. Perhaps Grimm was the best guard several of the voters at the time had ever seen, and just happened to have his career / impact cut short? You really don't have any idea what kind of impact his rings had on his selection. I mean, Jesse Sapolu has 4 rings, a couple of pro bowls. Those super bowls didn't help him any.  Harris Barton has 2 first team all pros and 3 super bowl rings, he's not getting any love either. Eric Wright has 4 rings, 1st team all pro. Nada. Roger Craig has 3 rings, multiple pro bowls, and a first team all pro. 

Secondarily, you can throw out whatever player you want and the comp really doesn't mean anything because nobody has ever gotten into the hall of fame in such a marginalized, niche role as "special teams ace". That's a role that has considerably less impact than even kickers and punters to be honest. Slater's election would be unprecedented. 

I don't know why there has to be a ton of Patriots in the hall of fame from this dynasty. Isn't that kind of their thing? That the whole is greater than the sum of the parts? They've had a lot of good and very good players, but part of the appeal is the blue collar players they have. We should still expect at least 6 from the dynasty to be in - BB, Brady, Law, Gronk, AV and Kraft. The 49ers only had Montana, Young, Rice, Lott, Haley, Walsh from their run, along with Eddie D. Fred Dean got some time in there, though he played only 2 full seasons for the niners (the rest were all shortened), less than 60 games, and if you're going to count Dean for the 49ers, you'll have to count Moss for the Pats. So the two teams would have a comparable number of main enshrinements for their dynasty.

The 49ers did sign some guys for a year or two that ended up in the HOF, but most of these guys were largely HOF with or without their time with the 49ers, so really hard to count these guys. This list includes Deion (1 season w/49ers), Kevin Greene (1 season w/49ers, already had over 100 sacks in his career before joining the 49ers), Chris Doleman (3 seasons with 49ers, already had over 100 sacks prior to coming to the 49ers), Rickey Jackson (last two seasons of his career, obviously more remembered for his run with the Saints and the Dome Patrol), Richard Dent (1 season with the 49ers, last of his career), & Rod Woodson (1 season, about 14 years into his career). 

Also, I think it's kind of funny that you're talking about guys who have 4 rings as "starters" being few and far between as if Slater himself is a starter. You realize that he is not, right? He's a special teams ace and has a role that isn't atypically filled out by third round through udfa rookies. He's not a "starter". 

Lastly, couple of honest questions to approach this in a different perspective. One: If the AP had not added on the slot for "special teams player" would anyone have cared? Follow up, if the AP never adds that on, is this conversation still happening? His career AV (pro football reference's metric for determining the value of a player) is 4. 

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1 hour ago, Forge said:

Are you suggesting that Grimm got into the HOF because of the  rings? Because unless you have something to back that up, that's a leap that has no backing. He was a three time first team all pro, 4 time pro bowler. It's very possible that the merits of his induction were based on that. It's not unprecedented for the HOF to give elite players with very short careers an induction. Perhaps Grimm was the best guard several of the voters at the time had ever seen, and just happened to have his career / impact cut short? You really don't have any idea what kind of impact his rings had on his selection. I mean, Jesse Sapolu has 4 rings, a couple of pro bowls. Those super bowls didn't help him any.  Harris Barton has 2 first team all pros and 3 super bowl rings, he's not getting any love either. Eric Wright has 4 rings, 1st team all pro. Nada. Roger Craig has 3 rings, multiple pro bowls, and a first team all pro. 

Secondarily, you can throw out whatever player you want and the comp really doesn't mean anything because nobody has ever gotten into the hall of fame in such a marginalized, niche role as "special teams ace". That's a role that has considerably less impact than even kickers and punters to be honest. Slater's election would be unprecedented. 

I don't know why there has to be a ton of Patriots in the hall of fame from this dynasty. Isn't that kind of their thing? That the whole is greater than the sum of the parts? They've had a lot of good and very good players, but part of the appeal is the blue collar players they have. We should still expect at least 6 from the dynasty to be in - BB, Brady, Law, Gronk, AV and Kraft. The 49ers only had Montana, Young, Rice, Lott, Haley, Walsh from their run, along with Eddie D. Fred Dean got some time in there, though he played only 2 full seasons for the niners (the rest were all shortened), less than 60 games, and if you're going to count Dean for the 49ers, you'll have to count Moss for the Pats. So the two teams would have a comparable number of main enshrinements for their dynasty.

The 49ers did sign some guys for a year or two that ended up in the HOF, but most of these guys were largely HOF with or without their time with the 49ers, so really hard to count these guys. This list includes Deion (1 season w/49ers), Kevin Greene (1 season w/49ers, already had over 100 sacks in his career before joining the 49ers), Chris Doleman (3 seasons with 49ers, already had over 100 sacks prior to coming to the 49ers), Rickey Jackson (last two seasons of his career, obviously more remembered for his run with the Saints and the Dome Patrol), Richard Dent (1 season with the 49ers, last of his career), & Rod Woodson (1 season, about 14 years into his career). 

Also, I think it's kind of funny that you're talking about guys who have 4 rings as "starters" being few and far between as if Slater himself is a starter. You realize that he is not, right? He's a special teams ace and has a role that isn't atypically filled out by third round through udfa rookies. He's not a "starter". 

Lastly, couple of honest questions to approach this in a different perspective. One: If the AP had not added on the slot for "special teams player" would anyone have cared? Follow up, if the AP never adds that on, is this conversation still happening? His career AV (pro football reference's metric for determining the value of a player) is 4. 

All good points, just keep in mind I didn't start this thread but I like to play the other side. There's a lot going against Slater and the Pats will have a decent amount of guys in anyway.

However on the Russ Grimm question, he really did only have 4 outstanding seasons, which for a guard isn't much. I mean John Hannah had way more as a contemporary. And fair or not, Grimm was often painted in the media as one of the few parts of all 3 champion Skins teams. Despite of course the fact he didn't start in 2 of those Super Bowls. He also waited a while so a guy like Dwight Stephenson for example who got in sooner with 1 additional stand-out season is not exactly apt. It could boil down to just opinion but I don't think Grimm is in the Hall of he say left Washington in 1987 and played out his career elsewhere with 1 ring. I really don't. Because Bill Fralic ain't in and neither is Wisniewski.

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9 hours ago, Art_Vandalay said:
12 hours ago, Nabbs4u said:

Ray Guy actually changed the position and how it was played from that point forward in history

I don't know what this means. Punting still involves just punting a ball. Guy didn't change anything. He was just the best at it. Guy and Slater have the same number of Pro Bowls and SB wins. Guy does have two more 1st team all pros. So, pretty similar overall. I'm not saying I would vote for Slater to be inducted. But it's not some absurd notion as a lot of people are saying.

He revolutionized  the position. Before Guy, Punters weren't  hitting balls with the hang time and distance he was doing. He was the first! He is what every punter following tried to immolate or surpass. That's why he is a HOF. 

Slater isn't doing anything numerous others haven't done before him other then being on SB Winning teams. A massive contributor sure, best in the business, sure. HOF? Not in the slightest regardless  if a Punter or Kicker is in or not.

Now if you  want to talk about PR/KR deserving, by all means.

Edited by Nabbs4u

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