Why will we never see another Patriots dynasty again? Salary cap?

[William Lee]

5 minutes ago, C0LTSFAN4L1F3 said:

Yeah none of this is relevant to my point in any capacity. Again, I have to wonder if you actually read my original post. Especially since now you seem to be thinking I was referring to myself refuting your point in the last post. 

And LOL at you assuming a bias in something like this. 

GOAT coach routinely produced offense that scored 300 pts or less?

[C0LTSFAN4L1F3]

1 minute ago, William Lee said:

GOAT coach routinely produced offense that produced 300 pts or less?

He's not an offensive coach. He's a defensive coach, and makes sure his team is generally well prepared and makes minimal mistakes. In terms of doing that at a high level for so long, nobody has ever done it better. In Brady's 19 year career, he has literally only had 3-non top 10 scoring defenses. That is unfathomable consistency on the defensive side. Talent is constantly switched around, teams constantly fluctuate in their defensive rankings, to do that so much that long, is incredible. Assuming randomness, an NFL team has just a 0.00026% of accomplishing such a feat. (Or a 1 in 384,615 chance.) He also has played with five top 5 scoring defenses. Such amazing consistency is obviously in large part of their coach over this entire time frame. 

In those 3 aforementioned seasons, Brady missed the playoffs, and went 3-2 in the playoffs with the wins coming in wildcard games against the likes of the Jaguars and ******* Tebow's Broncos. This may come as shocking information, but football is a team game, and Brady never would have accomplished a fraction of what he did without Bellicheck and/or just being on good teams. 

[William Lee]

24 minutes ago, C0LTSFAN4L1F3 said:

He's not an offensive coach. He's a defensive coach, and makes sure his team is generally well prepared and makes minimal mistakes. In terms of doing that at a high level for so long, nobody has ever done it better. In Brady's 19 year career, he has literally only had 3-non top 10 scoring defenses. That is unfathomable consistency on the defensive side. Talent is constantly switched around, teams constantly fluctuate in their defensive rankings, to do that so much that long, is incredible. Assuming randomness, an NFL team has just a 0.00026% of accomplishing such a feat. (Or a 1 in 384,615 chance.) He also has played with five top 5 scoring defenses. Such amazing consistency is obviously in large part of their coach over this entire time frame. 

In those 3 aforementioned seasons, Brady missed the playoffs, and went 3-2 in the playoffs with the wins coming in wildcard games against the likes of the Jaguars and ******* Tebow's Broncos. This may come as shocking information, but football is a team game, and Brady never would have accomplished a fraction of what he did without Bellicheck and/or just being on good teams. 

Again, due to lousy offense in AFCE, you have to add 30-40 pts to PA before grading the defense.

You can't be a GOAT coach if you are just a genius on defense.

Didn't you see how consistently Pats offense has been? Didn't you see the defense in 4 games that Pats lost during regular seasons? That, is his defense when Pats  offense struggles. 

Belichick is a genius at taking away best weapons from opponents, but can't shut down good and versatile offense. Your hero Peyton was not afraid of his defense anymore once he started throwing to receivers other than Harrison and Wayne. 

That is why his defense ranked much lower on total yard allowed, you know what it means? it means that the defense would collapse if offense struggles.

Go check those great defense in NFL history, they ranked on top on both total yards allowed and total points allowed.

And because Brady plays time-control offense, opponents in general don't have chance scoring 40 pts a game, not even over 31 pts. Go check your colts defense by taking away those 40 pts game, see where Colts defense would rank.

Most of time, BB's defense works good only if his offense can consistently score like 24 or more pts. No elite offense is afraid of his defense.

(Don't mention Rams with injured Todd Gurley and without Kupp, plus an inexperienced QB, pls)

 

[C0LTSFAN4L1F3]

3 minutes ago, William Lee said:

Again, due to lousy offense in AFCE, you have to add 30-40 pts to PA before grading the defense.

I already explained how this is irrational. That is, in addition to how hilariously arbitrary this is. 

4 minutes ago, William Lee said:

You can't be a GOAT coach if you are just a genius on defense.

Oh really? And who exactly is a genius on both sides of the ball? Bill Walsh?

 

5 minutes ago, William Lee said:

Belichick is a genius at taking away best weapons from opponents, but can't shut down good and versatile offense. Your hero Peyton was not afraid of his defense anymore once he started throwing to receivers other than Harrison and Wayne.

So in other words, "He can't stop elite offenses!" As if that somehow makes him not a great defensive coach. Do you realize how insane that sounds?

Oh, and it's just factually incorrect. You're just blatantly wrong. In the 2 SuperBowls in which the Pats faced #1 ranked scoring offenses, and who both are some of the highest scoring offenses of all time, to a total of 38 points, or 19PPG. This is in addition to just holding the #2 scoring offense to just 3 points. So, in the 3 SuperBowls in which they faced teams with top 2 scoring offenses, they have allowed just 41 points. So, yeah, you just don't know what the **** you're talking about. 

Lol. My hero? Okay dude. 

11 minutes ago, William Lee said:

No elite offense is afraid of his defense.

Lol. I could go into more detail about how hilariously wrong this is, but I think I already sufficiently proved my point. 

[William Lee]

3 minutes ago, C0LTSFAN4L1F3 said:

Oh really? And who exactly is a genius on both sides of the ball? Bill Walsh?

Don't you see there have been so many teams with consistently good defense? Are you blind?

If you have an offense that scores 440 pts, you can make playoff without any problem as long as your defense is NOT among the worst.

So, who is responsible for the success of Pats offense?

[C0LTSFAN4L1F3]

Just now, William Lee said:

Don't you see there have been so many teams with consistently good defense? Are you blind?

Oh yeah? Mind giving me any examples of teams that had top 10 defenses 16 out of 19 years in the free agency era with gigantic turnover rates? I think you'll find you have trouble. 

 

1 minute ago, William Lee said:

If you have an offense that scores 440 pts, you can make playoff without any problem as long as your defense is NOT among the worst.

This isn't relevant. 

 

2 minutes ago, William Lee said:

So, who is responsible for the success of offense?

Considering I already explicitly answered this question in my original post, I'm baffled that you're even asking. 

[William Lee]

7 minutes ago, C0LTSFAN4L1F3 said:

Oh yeah? Mind giving me any examples of teams that had top 10 defenses 16 out of 19 years in the free agency era with gigantic turnover rates? I think you'll find you have trouble. 

That is so lame.

That have been so many defenses that were good for 5 years, for 7 years, for 10 years,  either won only 1 SB or accomplished nothing.

Oh, they won 1 SB only when their defense were at peak.

Only Ravens made to AFCCG multiple times when Joe Flacco played like elite QB in playoff, and Ravens fell when Joe Flacco failed, and you here talk about how consistent defense is the key for a dynasty. Please.

[C0LTSFAN4L1F3]

3 minutes ago, William Lee said:

That is so lame.

That have been so many defenses that were good for 5 years, for 7 years, for 10 years,  either won only 1 SB or accomplished nothing.

Oh, they won 1 SB only when their defense were at peak.

Yeah, okay? The entire point is the consistency over the entire time frame. Being good for 5 years really isn't that impressive. But please, enlighten me which other team maintained a rate of being top 10 84% of the time over the case of multiple decades? 

Not even sure what you're even trying to say?

[William Lee]

2 minutes ago, C0LTSFAN4L1F3 said:

Yeah, okay? The entire point is the consistency over the entire time frame. Being good for 5 years really isn't that impressive. But please, enlighten me which other team maintained a rate of being top 10 84% of the time over the case of multiple decades? 

Not even sure what you're even trying to say?

The title of the thread is about dynasty.

Only Ravens made to AFCCG multiple times when Joe Flacco played like elite QB in playoff, and Ravens fell when Joe Flacco failed, and you here talk about how consistent defense is the key for a dynasty. Please.

[C0LTSFAN4L1F3]

Just now, William Lee said:

The question is about dynasty.

Only Ravens made to AFCCG multiple times when Joe Flacco played like elite QB in playoff, and Ravens fell when Joe Flacco failed, and you here talk about how consistent defense is the key for a dynasty. Please.

Can't tell if you're strawmanning me or legitimately have misinterpreted my argument this badly. 

[William Lee]

6 minutes ago, C0LTSFAN4L1F3 said:

Can't tell if you're strawmanning me or legitimately have misinterpreted my argument this badly. 

Here is the logic : 

There are 3 reasons A, B, C for the success of Pats. 

A is the necessary condition, B and C are not.

You talk about how  B and C played the important roles in  the success of Pats dynasty.

My last several posts show you what A is. Do you know what necessary condition is?

[C0LTSFAN4L1F3]

1 hour ago, William Lee said:

My last several posts show you what A is. Do you know what necessary condition is?

Please enlighten me

[NFLExpert49]

3 hours ago, William Lee said:

Gruden would have been a genius with Brady.

Watch this play, @1:56, ht tps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TazshKUz6XU&t=4s

Can you tell what Brady did special in the play? (of course, Edelmen was great too, I will argue that he deserves HOF in 2nd nomination.)

(If you can, slow the play down by 3x, and watch out the moment Edelmen turned and the moment Brady threw the ball.)

If you still can't figure out what Brady did special, please change your screen name.

As Jeff Garcia once said, Gruden "doesn't like to marry. He only likes to date." Gruden can not sit still with quarterbacks. The moment Brady first started struggling this year, Gruden would have benched Brady for Hoyer and said, "Ahhhh don't care what you say, man this Hoyer gah can play." 

Gruden is an absolute joke. A clown. His scheme is fairly friendly for QBs, so he can get away with his laughable player management incompetence to some extent, but he would have ruined the Patriots' chances this year. 

"of course, Edelmen was great too, I will argue that he deserves HOF in 2nd nomination"

LOL! 

Just imagine...Jerry Rice, Michael Irvin, Paul Warfield, Cris Carter, Randy Moss, Terrell Owens...and the leg-UHN-da-ry Juuuulian Edelmannnn. 0 Pro Bowl selections, not in the Top 200 in receiving yards or touchdowns. 

It's hilarious how the fans have somehow managed to undermine Brady's best argument for his greatness - that he has done it throughout his career with piss-poor receivers - by turning his receivers into the most overrated athletes to ever play any sport.

Well, of course Brady succeeded! He had HALL OF FAME wide receivers like Troy Brown, Wes Welker, and Julian Edelman! What QB wouldn't succeed when surrounded by HALL OF FAME late round/UDFA journeymen like that? 

He could have been stuck with inferior non-HOF WRs like Andre Johnson, Calvin Johnson, Henry Ellard, Jimmy Smith, Chad Johnson, etc. 

[Wolverine_Joe]

it's gonna be very hard.  not only the team have to play well on the field, but they also have excel at being a great organization. 

we saw a talented team winning championships.  but to do this for 15-20 years isn't about the talent.  Patriots are a successful organization. i advise you guys to watch every Patriots related documentary there is (do your job for example).  it's an organizational success.  no elite QB or a great x's o's coach can overcome a toxic locker room full of selfish players.  no elite QB can overcome a coach who doesn't believe in him.   no coach will ever be successful if the team quit on him.  

 it starts at the top with kraft, but we all know brady/belichick are the main reason.  they really created the culture of excellence TOGETHER.  it's a perfect marriage.   and great thing about this marriage is that there's no emotions involved. they are buddy buddies.  they don't go out and hang around. it's a strictly coach/qb relationship and IMO they bring out the best in each other.  

to be like pats these things have to happen IMO 

1. finding an elite QB for cheap (finding him in later rounds would be great, no ego, cheaper, and etc)

2. keep that elite QB for a long time without making him top 4-5 highest paid QB

2. creating a culture of winning year after year by winning early. winning many games buy you time in turmoil

3. demanding the respect of the locker room at all cost

4. being able to adapt 

5. having an owner with patience

6. never overpay for players

7. get rid of stars before they age

8. draft well (even with many WR failures many of the key players are drafted)

9. trade well 

10. weed out any bad seeds immediately 

11. be able to take a risk (bringing in josh gordon, corey dillon, etc - this only happens if the team already established a winning culture)

 

 

all of these things were a major factor.  and it's very hard.  it's almost impossible to replicate that in this talent driven league.  cutting a good player just because he didn't fit (jamie collins for ex) is hard.  not signing chandler jones, richard seymour is hard.  and it creates a toxic environment in the locker room because players hate not getting paid and anxiety of being traded or getting cut.   

but pats get to do this because even the best player takes a pay cut.  

and even with all of those above, players have to go out on the field and execute.  

 

i don't know what the odds of going to 9SBs in 18 years, but i have to assume it's virtually impossible.   

 

it really is mindboggling what they've done.   

 

 

 

 

 

 

[ChazStandard]

6 hours ago, C0LTSFAN4L1F3 said:

He's not an offensive coach. He's a defensive coach, and makes sure his team is generally well prepared and makes minimal mistakes. In terms of doing that at a high level for so long, nobody has ever done it better. In Brady's 19 year career, he has literally only had 3-non top 10 scoring defenses. That is unfathomable consistency on the defensive side. Talent is constantly switched around, teams constantly fluctuate in their defensive rankings, to do that so much that long, is incredible. Assuming randomness, an NFL team has just a 0.00026% of accomplishing such a feat. (Or a 1 in 384,615 chance.) He also has played with five top 5 scoring defenses. Such amazing consistency is obviously in large part of their coach over this entire time frame. 

In those 3 aforementioned seasons, Brady missed the playoffs, and went 3-2 in the playoffs with the wins coming in wildcard games against the likes of the Jaguars and ******* Tebow's Broncos. This may come as shocking information, but football is a team game, and Brady never would have accomplished a fraction of what he did without Bellicheck and/or just being on good teams. 

...and only 1 non-top ten scoring offense (2003 rank 12). In fact the offense has, on average, out-ranked the defense. Not to mention that a quite major part of the reason Patriots defenses always have a better points ranking than yards ranking is how little the offense turns the ball over.

Generally speaking, the Pats have had more big-name players on defense than offense - because Brady has shown two things: 1) He's willing to take less money  to keep the team competitive (nothing to do with Giselle, this started in 2004) & 2) He will put up decent efficiency numbers and a top 10 offense with mediocre to slightly above average talent on offense. For example this year, where he lead the no. 4 scoring offense with a bits and pieces cast of characters.