Did Marvin Lewis underachieve with the Bengals?

[JAF-N72EX]

On 2/11/2019 at 5:47 PM, DontTazeMeBro said:

No. He went to the playoffs 4 or 5 times with Andy Dalton in a division with the Ravens and Steelers and the cheapest owner on earth. You should make the playoffs zero times with Andy Dalton in a division with the Ravens and Steelers and the cheapest owner on earth.

This is another one of those "in hindsight" post. 

[JAF-N72EX]

The Bengals had a good chance to win a SB in the mid-90's and failed to do so because of the constant outside distractions surrounded by the players in the locker room who felt like they had free reign to do anything they wanted.

This falls on Lewis. There is a difference between being a players coach and a coach who has no control over the locker room and that is exactly what Lewis was.

[theJ]

2 hours ago, JustAnotherFan said:

This falls on Lewis. There is a difference between being a players coach and a coach who has no control over the locker room and that is exactly what Lewis was.

Curious what makes you say that?  The dumb crap that Burfict and Jones did?  Because that's not locker room stuff...

His teams were always undisciplined when it came to penalties, but that's an on the field problem.

[theJ]

8 hours ago, Tugboat said:

He got an unusually long leash, but i don't really feel like he "underachieved".  Especially in getting a lot out of a roster built around Andy Dalton for a lot of years.  That he had them firing as a sort of perennial playoff contender for a while isn't really "underachieving".  Especially not in that division.  But i wouldn't say he overachieved either.  He never really built on it and took them anywhere.  Just sort of falls into the category of "Coaching Purgatory".  Just good enough to stick around.  He was basically the Andy Dalton of coaches.

You won't like this, but i think there's a chance Marvin was holding Andy back.

As i mentioned in one of my earlier posts, the Carson Palmer led teams suffered from the same "bright light" syndromes that the Andy Dalton led teams did.  Palmer's numbers got a lot better after he left for Oakland/Arizona.  For some reason, Marvin's teams always played tight when the lights were on.  It was never just the QB, it was the whole team.  It's not inconceivable that you see Andy improve now that Marvin is gone.  

Pro-football-reference is giving me some trouble at the moment, but cobbling together yahoo and PFR stats, here are Carson Palmer's late game splits between Cin and Oak/Ari:

Cin: 188/348, 54% comp, 10 TD/8 INT, 5.7 YPA, 180 Y/G

Ari/Oak: 207/319, 65% comp, 13 TD/3 INT, 7.7 YPA, 272 Y/G

Quite striking, yes?

[theJ]

7 hours ago, theJ said:

Pro-football-reference is giving me some trouble at the moment, but cobbling together yahoo and PFR stats, here are Carson Palmer's late game splits between Cin and Oak/Ari:

Cin: 188/348, 54% comp, 10 TD/8 INT, 5.7 YPA, 180 Y/G

Ari/Oak: 207/319, 65% comp, 13 TD/3 INT, 7.7 YPA, 272 Y/G

Quite striking, yes?

PFR is working again.  Updated numbers that i trust now.

Cin: 207/379, 55% comp, 11 TD/8 INT, 5.9 YPA, 186 YPG, 4 W-8 L

Ari/Oak: 346/541, 64% comp, 25 TD/10 INT, 7.8 YPA, 282 YPG, 8-6-1 (W-L-T)

Also relevant, his overall career numbers from Cincinnati to Oak/Ari are very comparable.  So it's not like he got a ton better, which led to his night games getting better.

My hypothesis is that somehow, someway, Marvin Lewis managed the team in a way that lead to them playing worse when the bright lights were on.  I'm not necessarily convinced it's the players or any particular player (in this particular discussion, the QB).

[NFL_Announcer]

No, before Lewis arrived the Bengals were the laughing stock of the NFL and were even coined the 'Bungals'. The fact Lewis took them to the playoffs multiple times with good ol' ginger at the helm while routinely being forced to field quite possibly the most injury prone group of weapons in NFL history, is remarkable in and of itself. 

And they're replacing it with Zac Taylor? Who was the QB coach of the Rams... where Goff first and foremost profited from a GOOD QB coach in Greg Olson the year prior, and was fairly mediocre when Gurley went down while having quite possibly the easiest schedule in 2018. 

But Zac Taylor is going to save the Bengals... okay Mike Brown.... 

[Master of Suspense]

No. It wasn't an all time great SB but it was entertaining enough to watch. 

[Roninho]

9 hours ago, theJ said:

PFR is working again.  Updated numbers that i trust now.

Cin: 207/379, 55% comp, 11 TD/8 INT, 5.9 YPA, 186 YPG, 4 W-8 L

Ari/Oak: 346/541, 64% comp, 25 TD/10 INT, 7.8 YPA, 282 YPG, 8-6-1 (W-L-T)

Also relevant, his overall career numbers from Cincinnati to Oak/Ari are very comparable.  So it's not like he got a ton better, which led to his night games getting better.

My hypothesis is that somehow, someway, Marvin Lewis managed the team in a way that lead to them playing worse when the bright lights were on.  I'm not necessarily convinced it's the players or any particular player (in this particular discussion, the QB).

I cannot comment on Palmers time at the bengals and arizona, but the guy was awfull at the Raiders. He wasnt in a good situation (from the couch to starting for an average at best team in a week), but what i remember from that time is that the offense started going and right when you started to feel a bit confident Palmer would throw an int.

[theJ]

6 hours ago, Roninho said:

I cannot comment on Palmers time at the bengals and arizona, but the guy was awfull at the Raiders. He wasnt in a good situation (from the couch to starting for an average at best team in a week), but what i remember from that time is that the offense started going and right when you started to feel a bit confident Palmer would throw an int.

Oh that was definitely a theme with him and the Bengals too.  I was more looking at general trends and didn't want to pick and choose data.  His 4 primetime games with Oakland were not impressive (1-3, 5 TD to 5 INT's, etc).  But still better than what he did in Cincinnati.

[CP3MVP]

He should’ve been fired on the spot after that steelers playoffs  lost 

[Johnny Nix]

What Marvin did in Cincy will never be fully understood by fans outside of Cincy. Beyond his win/loss record, he slowly changed Mike Brown to the point where he seems to understand he needs to let others run the show. Mike Brown has always done things his way, small scouting departments, not players in free agency, and just outdated concepts etc. Marvin left the Bengals in a lot better shape than when he came in, and for that he certainly overachieved in my mind. Unfortunately his stay was just too long, and he went from hero to villain. Mike Brown hiring Zac Taylor and giving him full control over who he wants to bring in says a lot about how Mike Brown has evolved. Hopefully these changes work out, but at least it’s something new and different. 

[Roninho]

I would say that dissapointment is a better term then underachieved. I dont think the Bengals franchise is the easiest to be succesfull with, but if you hire a HC and he stays for 16 years and you do not win a playoff game in that period then i would say that expectations were not met. Which is dissapointing. 

It the same for Fisher in his period at the Titans after their SB loss. Since he coached you to a SB loss you think he can do it again and you keep him around only to realise a decade later that you are in that bill Murray movie and every day you wake up its 8-8.

[Uncle Buck]

He underachieved.  Sure, he went to the playoffs several times, but even if you play teams that are better than your own every single time, you should be able to win at least one of those games.  The best team doesn't always win in the playoffs.  Eventually, you've got to get the job done - or at least partially done, by winning a single playoff game.