Packers new slot receiver is ....

[Norm]

I seriously think Rodgers cost mvs probably 150-200 yards on throws we TYPICALLY have seen him make in his career. Yeah maybe mvs was in the wrong spot etc etc but that wasn't my feel at the time on many of them.

[Nick_gb]

1 hour ago, SSG said:

Sure they showed flashes.  They also had instances where they looked more like they belonged on the practice squad than in the starting lineup.  

I just want insurance.  There is no such thing as too much talent at WR and I don't want to be stuck looking at 2019's season like we are looking at this last one.  Our offense was horrid last year and I don't think it's coincidental that just so happened to be the year where we had EASILY the least talented WR core Rodgers has ever had to work with.  How many quility offenses around the NFL needed mutiple low end rookie WRs or undrafted free agents to contribute as quility starters?  Also, Allison is a UFA next season.  Could be forced to pay him like a high end starting WR if these sophmore's aren't the super stars they are made out to be.  

Aaron Rodgers had instances where he looked like he should be bagging groceries instead of on a Football field. Should we get insurance there too? Last I checked whether or not these young WRs pan out won't affect what we value GMO at. We aren't gonna pay him a high-end WR contract just because MVS and crew ran into a sophomore slump. If we pay him like it (we won't) it'll be because he earned it.

Also, I don't find it a coincidence that our offense was horrible in a year that Aaron Rodgers played arguably the worst football of his entire career. If you want to point the fingers at our young wideouts and assume that Aaron Rodgers just needs extra help and no blame that's your pill to swallow. However, I'm of the mindset he decided he wanted to be the highest paid QB in the NFL and opted to not take a Brady approach and those paychecks he gets are going to affect the talent that gets placed on this roster. That's the bed he made and it's the bed he should be sleeping in. 

 

 

Edited February 12, 2019 by Nick_gb

[SSG]

1 hour ago, Nick_gb said:

Aaron Rodgers had instances where he looked like he should be bagging groceries instead of on a Football field. Should we get insurance there too? Last I checked whether or not these young WRs pan out won't affect what we value GMO at. We aren't gonna pay him a high-end WR contract just because MVS and crew ran into a sophomore slump. If we pay him like it (we won't) it'll be because he earned it.

Also, I don't find it a coincidence that our offense was horrible in a year that Aaron Rodgers played arguably the worst football of his entire career. If you want to point the fingers at our young wideouts and assume that Aaron Rodgers just needs extra help and no blame that's your pill to swallow. However, I'm of the mindset he decided he wanted to be the highest paid QB in the NFL and opted to not take a Brady approach and those paychecks he gets are going to affect the talent that gets placed on this roster. That's the bed he made and it's the bed he should be sleeping in. 

 

 

Here's a list of the multi-start WRs Green Bay has used since AR12 took the helm.

• Donald Driver (08-11)
• Gregg Jennings (08-12)
• James Jones (08-10, 12, 13, 15)
• Jordy Nelson (10-14, 16, 17)
• Randall Cobb (12-18)
• Jarrett Boykin (13, 14)
• Davante Adams (14-18)
• Ty Montgomery (15)
• Geronimo Allison (17, 18) 
• Marquez Valdez-Scantling (18)
• Equanimeous St Brown (18)
• Jake Kumerow (18)

If we were going to list these WR in regards to talent, can anyone objectively tell me that the bottom 4 WRs wouldn't be at or near the bottom of most lists?  MAYBE Monty is listed below them but he basically had 6 games at WR before he got moved to RB his sophomore year.

We'll have to agree to disagree.  The fact that Aaron Rodgers had EASILY the worst supporting cast he's ever had to deal with matters.  He shouldn't be responsible for carrying 100% of this offense on his shoulders because he makes a lot of money. Maybe we do have the wrong guy if we're expecting him to be Godgers on every snap, making high end starting WRs out of bottom of the draft prospects or undrafted Free Agents.  Heck Jake Kumerow needed 4 years in the NFL before he was able to make a roster and register his first career catch and he's the caliber of prospect we're expecting Rodgers to run a championship caliber offense with.

The mention of the Tom Brady approach while failing to acknowledge that his cap hit is bigger than AR12's this year AND next year is kind of funny.  Shows the agenda and that Aaron Rodgers will ALWAYS get 100% of the blame.  Some fans will always hate him regardless of how he plays because he makes a lot of money.  

[SSG]

3 hours ago, vegas492 said:

I'll sum this up.  You don't like the young WR's.  I do.  I can be very critical of GB and sometimes get ripped for that.  I knew that going into last year, it was going to be the worst WR corp we've seen in a while.  I came away pleasantly surprised at the young kids.  Especially MVS and ESB.  I think that both have a home in GB and look forward to seeing their growth.

We can agree to disagree on the state of the WR position in GB.

It's not that I don't like our WRs.  As a #4 or #5, they'd be fine.  As a #2 or #3 not sop much.  They showed us this last year just how unbelievably awful our offense is capable of being when we're getting bad, inconsistent play from our WR core.  I  don't like to assume production from guys who have never produced.  

We'll certainly agree to disagree.  

3 hours ago, vegas492 said:

---I don't get why we are still talking about .  Jeff.  Freaking.  Janis.  The guy who never opened a playbook and was more interested in hunting than playing football.  In the regular season, all his years combined, did Janis get to the numbers that MVS put up last year?  I'll check it...Janis career= 17 catches for 200 yards.  MVS in his first year...38 catches, 581 yards.  I know you'll quickly turn this around to MVS getting playing time.  Uh, MVS leapfrogged Moore to get those catches.  Janis couldn't leapfrog anyone.  We can agree that Adams was more polished than either Janis or any of our rookie WR's, but that is where it stops to me.  Janis had nice value as a specials player.  MVS is better.  ESB is better.  We shall see with Moore.  And...since you brought Adams up.  38 for 446 in his rookie year, where he got a lot of playing time.  MVS outproduced him...and that's saying something.  Again, patience.  It worked for Adams.

I don't care about the difference in stats.  Jeff Janis battled for playing time on an elite offense (#1 scoring) with a loaded group of WRs.  He had 4 games in his Packer career where he seen more than 50% of the offensive snaps in a game.  He had 1 game as a Packer where he seen the number of snaps that MVS averaged last year after the Cobb injury.  Let's also not forget his playoff game.  In one of the 4 games where he seen 50% of the offensive snaps he was more productive than MVS was at any point last year.  He also had more TDs in that one game than MVS had in 10 starts.  I'm not arguing who is better because Janis didn't get a fraction of the opportunity.  He showed in the playoff game he was capable of production that far exceeded anything MVS did last year when given the opportunity that MVS got on a weekly basis (and I  despise/ed Jeff Janis).  MVS leaped Moore who didn't have one regular season snap where he looked like he belonged on an active NFL roster.  Jake Kumerow, a guy who's so talented that he needed 4 years in the NFL to make his first team, jumped Moore immediately upon getting healthy.  The fact that MVS only had to compete with a terrible rookie like Moore speaks to just how awful our WR core was last year.

I'm not going to compare our rookie WRs like their opportunity is equal.  Jarrett Boykin was substantially more productive than MVS in his first opportunity to start, why wasn't he heard as the next great WR?  

 -Did you see the deep balls that Rodgers flat out missed?  Were those the fault of MVS?  Or of the bad WR coaching that has been reported?  Rodgers hits half his deep balls to MVS and he's closer to 800 yards.  And Rodgers hitting half those deep passes is more like what we've seen from Rodgers in his career versus what we saw last year.

Yeah he missed him on 2 or 3 occasions though it is a stretch to assume he'd have caught all of them given how inconsistent his hands were.  I    also seen MVS go a long stretch in the most important part of the season where he was completely useless.  His routes were piss poor.  His effort was terrible and his hands were inconsistent.  One of my biggest issues was how useless he was in the scramble drill.  I've never seen WR quit on a QB as quick as MVS quit on Rodgers.  The second AR12 passed him in his progressions or he needed some movement in the scramble drill MVS was useless.  He'd start walking back to the bench before he ever thought about coming back to help his QB.  

  --Pure speculation on your part.  Poor argument. 

No more speculation than assuming MVS is going to be a starting caliber WR on a championship caliber offense after what we seen last year.

-Driver did okay for himself.  Any of those lower end WR's produce 550 yards as a rookie?  How about the higher ones?  MVS is ahead of the curve.  Don't hate.  Just be happy that he looked the part for a rookie and look forward to the development of talent.

Driver sure did.  The other 16 other WRs we've drafted near the bottom of the draft since him haven't.  Is 1 in every 17 players that good of a success rate for us to assume every late round rookie we'll ever draft will turn into Donald Driver?  Our failure rate with MVS or St Brown caliber prospects at WR is extremely high.  

-Dumpster fire because our QB failed last year.  O-line didn't help him.  Scheme failed.  Answer me this...is Adam Humphries the piece that turns the dumpster fire into a Super Bowl offense?  (Hint, the answer is no.)

QBs struggle and schemes fail when you've got one of the NFL's worst WR cores.  Now fans want to go into next year with less talent catching the ball.  Adam Humphries is a significant upgrade over every WR we've got on the roster not named Adams.  While he wouldn't fix it by himself he'd go a long way in the effort to improve one of the league's least talented WR cores.  

 

[coachbuns]

6 hours ago, SSG said:

Sure they showed flashes.  They also had instances where they looked more like they belonged on the practice squad than in the starting lineup.  

I just want insurance.  There is no such thing as too much talent at WR and I don't want to be stuck looking at 2019's season like we are looking at this last one.  Our offense was horrid last year and I don't think it's coincidental that just so happened to be the year where we had EASILY the least talented WR core Rodgers has ever had to work with.  How many quility offenses around the NFL needed mutiple low end rookie WRs or undrafted free agents to contribute as quility starters?  Also, Allison is a UFA next season.  Could be forced to pay him like a high end starting WR if these sophmore's aren't the super stars they are made out to be.  

This!

[fattlipp]

7 hours ago, SSG said:

Why not Jeff Janis?  He's closest comp to any of those sophmore WRs.  Guys that are much better athletes than football players.  I don't like the Adams comp given how much superior of a WR he was coming out of Fresno.  His last year in college was more productive than the college careers of either MVS or EQB.  

Right.  Just like Jeff Janis.  MVS's inabilities to be a consistant WR are solely on thew shoulders of Aaron Rodgers.  I don't understand how quick some fans are to remove 100% of the accountability from these rookies.  EVERYTHING is the result of our terrible QB.  

You are right about Schroeder's production.  Favre turned him into a 1000 yard receiver and it was at a great price.  A 17-15 record and back to back seasons missing the playoffs.  A 2 seaosn span where he threw 9 more INTs than TDs.  Rodgers can surely turn MVS or EQS into 1000 yard receivers but he'll throw 12 to 15 more INTs and we're going to continue to watch the playoffs from home in part because of our terrible offense.  

How many young low end WR prospects have ever had success in Green Bay?  The list of 4th, 5th, 6th and 7th round WRs is extreamly long.  He's elevated the game of high end prospects or proven NFL players WRs.  We've never developed a low end WR prospect into a starting caliper WR since AR12 took over.  

It is year one for those rookies.  It's also year 2 of missing the playoffs in part because you've got a dumpster fire for an offense.  If we ignore the WR position this year and they aren't the stars they are made out to be it's going to take that much longer to get this offense back up to championship caliper.  Can anyone objectively say that this offense was good enough to win a Super Bowl last year with MVS as your #2 option at WR?  

Rodgers threw to Janis one game when he had no choice, how did he do? , and against Patrick Petersen none the less.

Edited February 13, 2019 by fattlipp

[vegas492]

14 hours ago, SSG said:

It's not that I don't like our WRs.  As a #4 or #5, they'd be fine.  As a #2 or #3 not sop much.  They showed us this last year just how unbelievably awful our offense is capable of being when we're getting bad, inconsistent play from our WR core.  I  don't like to assume production from guys who have never produced.  

We'll certainly agree to disagree.  

 

So, I had forgotten that you and I had this discussion on a different thread.  I think to end it, we agreed that we think a lot alike in terms of the WR corp...and that you were looking for insurance against the rookies not developing.

I can dig that statement...insurance against the rookies not developing.  And I apologize to you for dragging this out...again. 

I'm all for insurance.  I don't know if Humphries, at his price, is the guy to get us over the hump.  

Here is a thought for you...and go with me on this.  If this offense is going to be somewhat similar to a Ram offense...timing/play action, maybe the better course of action is to draft another RB high, or grab a proven one in free agency?  Get a good ground game with multiple backs.  That ground game could allow for easier releases, easier routes and more success in the passing game.  Mark Ingram is out there.  Latavious Murry.  And even CJ Anderson.  I like Ingram best, but could see the benefit to a true power back like Murray or Anderson.

Just food for thought and again, I'm sorry that I forgot that we had this discussion regarding the rookie WR's earlier.

[vegas492]

11 hours ago, fattlipp said:

Rodgers threw to Janis one game when he had no choice, how did he do? , and against Patrick Petersen none the less.

I was probably one of the biggest Janis fans out there.  But...he won two jump balls.  Big time plays, but sandlot jump balls none the less.  Nothing about Janis shows that he ever learned how to run a route or where to be in the offense.  And that is a shame.  His career ended in GB when Rodgers hit him with a bomb when he was wide open and it clanked off of his facemask.  I can't help but wonder what would have happened had he simply caught that ball.

[vegas492]

I remember once GB drafted those 3 WR's, I went and read the scouting reports.  ESB has the highest grade.  Don't sleep on him.  Projected 3rd or 4'th rounder.

If you want some fun, here are the links to those reports.  Pretty spot on.  

https://www.nfl.com/prospects/equanimeous-st. brown?id=32462018-0002-5602-03f6-dbdbfff5cbea

https://www.nfl.com/prospects/marquez-valdes-scantling?id=32462018-0002-5602-295b-f22af0b559c5

https://www.nfl.com/prospects/j'mon-moore?id=32462018-0002-5600-241e-b3b4f7f6d768

[Cadmus]

Did someone say Duke Johnson? 

I'll say Duke Johnson. 

[StartBarr]

6 hours ago, Cadmus said:

Did someone say Duke Johnson? 

I'll say Duke Johnson. 

I could go for some Juke Dohnson myself. With Cleveland bringing in K. Hunt it seems more likely that he would be available now even though he provides a different skill set than Hunt / Chubb. A pass catching specialist at RB would do a lot for the offense. Aaron Jones has the skills to develop into more of a threat in that role but Duke probably wouldn’t cost a lot and he’s already proven to be very effective catching out of the backfield. 

[craig]

Late to this discussion, and no answers.  Couple thoughts:

1.  For the Packers to become a final-four type really good team again, we need some non-guaranteed, uninsured things to go right.  We probably need a whole lot of such things to go right.  Whether that be ESB, MVS, Kumerow, Moore and Tonyan all emerging and improving beautifully, and Graham too.  Rodgers becoming an accurate thrower.  Good health.  Happy improvements on RG and O-line.  Probably we won't have enough things go right to be a true contender.  But for that to happen, we'll need for some guys to end up being pretty good, guys whom we can't really be sure will turn out well based on what we know now.  

2.  Team doesn't have the resources to get good insurance at every uninsured spot.

3.  I think it's well possible that ESB and MVS, perhaps Moore and Tonyan and Kumerow too, will all improve themselves, and most or all become variably useful NFL guys.  

4.  I think it's also well possible that while volume numbers may go up, that ESB and MVS and Kumerow and Allison may simply lack the quickness to shake defenders and to ever become excellent get-open guys.  They may always be guys who secondary personnel will always find relatively easy to mirror, even if their length may always give them some "open window" even when their is a corner right on them.

5.  IN concept I'd love to add another receiving target, if the talent and price is right, whether in draft or in FA.  But I have no specific target that I expect to be available as an excellent value-per-price guy.  It's a concept; but whether there will be a situation where a FA makes dollar sense, or a draft pick makes better sense than somebody else at a different position, I have zero idea.  

6.  Given their profiles, I think it's both well possible that several from ESB, MVS, Kumerow, Allison, perhaps Moore and/or Tonyan might establish as NFL guys who will have careers and get some catches and yards.  While at the same time have none of them ever emerge as more than #3/4 type guys.  

7.  Something I don't get:  we often talk about timing and receivers being in exactly the right place at the right time.  Given that the o-line is usually allowing some pressure or deformation, and that Rodgers is routinely scrambling and improvising, I don't really get how that should be true?  Seems the majority of plays include some improv/scramble, so how can there ever really be some scripted "exact spot/time" for a receiver?  Likewise every secondary guy, who are all super talented to be in the NFL, is in the business of preventing guys from being in the exact spot at the exact time.  Yes, their game is to cover and mirror where you go; but also their job is to get their hands on you near the line, and to get in your way and make you re-route and run around them etc..  If an offense is supposed to have such precise time-and-place planning, isn't that just dumb and unrealistic given how effective defenses are at preventing any such thing?  

8.  If their is so much precise time-and-place precision necessary, is it realistic for a FA to get that all down fast?  Seems to me that even if you do sign a FA, that the "get-on-the-same-page-with-Aaron" stuff will still take time.  We've had the three FA TE's, but I guess otherwise no other experience.  But between injuries or whatever else, doesn't seem like we've ever had a FA "on the same page with Aaron" during the first half of a season.  

9.  If Rodgers isn't accurate, I'm not sure any of the receiver decisions are going to matter that much.  If Rodgers is wild, we're going nowhere anyway.  I dearly hope that he is accurate.

[66fan]

My thoughts on the slot receiver position is that more important than raw physical ability is football IQ. I feel that the slot receiver needs to be locked into Rodgers and they need to always on the same page (like Brady and Edelman) I feel that Cobb has that IQ and possibly Kumerow. Kumerow in his small sample of playing time seems to have the ability to break off routes to get himself open. Football IQ is not a measurable trait, but those players with higher football IQ always seem to succeed.

[ReadyToThump]

Bold prediction: MVS has over 1,000 yards and 5 TDs this season. 

[MantyWrestler]

On 2/12/2019 at 10:21 AM, coachbuns said:

Again, that's a lot of hope we are looking at.  If and that's if they improve ... great!  If not, our team will be hurting for pass receivers.  There's a whole lot of young/not much experience on the Packers receivers.  Guess there is always free agency to fall upon if things don't pan out but what will be left when it's apparent our receivers aren't working?  I don't like all this not knowing/counting on younger players to always pan out.  

No more than hoping a draft pick pans out. All theee rookies showed NFL ability with only Moore being suspect with hands, which as we know can improve. 

Remember the Vikings “stud” rookie from a couple years ago?