goldfishwars Posted March 8, 2019 Share Posted March 8, 2019 1 hour ago, The LBC said: If it is, then you'll have no problem actually explaining how it's so in detail instead of just stating it like it's fact that should just be believed because you say so. What specific attributes that Murray has make him a better fit for Kingsbury's Air Raid than Rosen? I think it's just people linking more lines of similarity between Murray (the mobility and arm) and Mohomes, than Mahomes and Rosen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PossibleCabbage Posted March 8, 2019 Share Posted March 8, 2019 I mean, some of the Cardinals preference for Murray likely has to do with how they probably cannot spin the #1 pick into an entire offensive line, but could spend the 1st round pick on a guy you don't need to block as much for. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr LBC Posted March 8, 2019 Share Posted March 8, 2019 9 hours ago, goldfishwars said: I think it's just people linking more lines of similarity between Murray (the mobility and arm) and Mohomes, than Mahomes and Rosen. Except that the mobility isn't even a medium sized quality that the scheme requires or even asks for. Mahomes' running at Texas tech was minimal - they certainly weren't designed runs. It was when he got into Reid's WCO that his mobility was more utilized. Meanwhile, Baker aside (and even he still wasn't rushing for ++ yards in the Air Raid and Baker's peak wasn't as much under Kingsbury as under Mike Leach - Kingsbury's mentor), the Kingsbury QB's beyond Mahomes have been Davis Webb, Case Keenum, Johnny Manziel (as a freshman), and Mike Brewer. The only way that Murray "fits the system" better than Rosen is that he has one year of practical experience running the system, whereas Rosen has always run a pro-style offense (and then whatever the hell grade school system Mike McCoy runs). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chrissooner49er Posted March 8, 2019 Share Posted March 8, 2019 Because Murray was heavily recruited by Kingsbury and almost chose T Tech over A&M. That could be one reason why people think he fits Kingsbury's O better than Rosen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goldfishwars Posted March 8, 2019 Share Posted March 8, 2019 (edited) 1 hour ago, The LBC said: Except that the mobility isn't even a medium sized quality that the scheme requires or even asks for. Mahomes' running at Texas tech was minimal - they certainly weren't designed runs. It was when he got into Reid's WCO that his mobility was more utilized. Meanwhile, Baker aside (and even he still wasn't rushing for ++ yards in the Air Raid and Baker's peak wasn't as much under Kingsbury as under Mike Leach - Kingsbury's mentor), the Kingsbury QB's beyond Mahomes have been Davis Webb, Case Keenum, Johnny Manziel (as a freshman), and Mike Brewer. The only way that Murray "fits the system" better than Rosen is that he has one year of practical experience running the system, whereas Rosen has always run a pro-style offense (and then whatever the hell grade school system Mike McCoy runs). Yeah, agree with you Air Raid QBs have come in all shapes. Nick Foles in Arizona springs to mind. To be fair, whilst there were no designed runs at TT, Mahomes' athletic playing style (extending plays, throwing on the move) echoes what Murray is expected to be in the NFL. It's definitely why people think Murray is a better scheme fit, even if it's Mahomes' play in KC which helped land Kingsbury a HC gig. Edited March 8, 2019 by goldfishwars Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PossibleCabbage Posted March 8, 2019 Share Posted March 8, 2019 Are we sure Kingsbury wasn't running Air Rad for the Red Raiders just because he had to deal with a talent differential and needed to score points? With a smoother distribution of talent across the league he might do something else? Like Kingsbury was Sumlin's OC at A&M wasn't he? I don't think that was really an "air raid" offense moreso than like Oklahoma is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goldfishwars Posted March 8, 2019 Share Posted March 8, 2019 36 minutes ago, PossibleCabbage said: Are we sure Kingsbury wasn't running Air Rad for the Red Raiders just because he had to deal with a talent differential and needed to score points? With a smoother distribution of talent across the league he might do something else? Like Kingsbury was Sumlin's OC at A&M wasn't he? I don't think that was really an "air raid" offense moreso than like Oklahoma is. Yeah, think it was. Definitely ran it under Sumlin at Houston when Case Keenum was there and obviously made his name playing under Mike Leach at Texas Tech. It's not like he's been exposed to a whole lot else. End of the day coaches coach what they know. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr LBC Posted March 8, 2019 Share Posted March 8, 2019 6 minutes ago, goldfishwars said: Yeah, think it was. Definitely ran it under Sumlin at Houston when Case Keenum was there and obviously made his name playing under Mike Leach at Texas Tech. It's not like he's been exposed to a whole lot else. End of the day coaches coach what they know. Yeah, I mean, we might see him incorporate some West Coast Offense variations in - both as the Air Raid somewhat derived from the WCO conceptual base, but also from the fact that they pro offenses that Kingsbury actually stuck on past camp had WCO roots), but it's very likely to be a shotgun-heavy Air Raid that we see out of him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PossibleCabbage Posted March 8, 2019 Share Posted March 8, 2019 I mean "shotgun heavy" is also like most NFL offenses now. 27 NFL teams ran >50% of their offensive snaps out of the shotgun last year (KC was 80%) and every team threw a majority of passes out of the shotgun. I figure this is one of these things where any time Arizona lines up in 11 personnel out of the shotgun and throws a pass people are going to say "Air Raid" (even though that's a wholly normal thing to do), just like how people will call a a play action pass an "RPO" if the Eagles are doing it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr LBC Posted March 8, 2019 Share Posted March 8, 2019 9 minutes ago, PossibleCabbage said: I mean "shotgun heavy" is also like most NFL offenses now. 27 NFL teams ran >50% of their offensive snaps out of the shotgun last year (KC was 80%) and every team threw a majority of passes out of the shotgun. I figure this is one of these things where any time Arizona lines up in 11 personnel out of the shotgun and throws a pass people are going to say "Air Raid" (even though that's a wholly normal thing to do), just like how people will call a a play action pass an "RPO" if the Eagles are doing it. Yeah. I get that. I think where we'll really have to see the translation is more in how much and how deep a spread concept he uses. We've seen a number of offenses (McVay's, I can speak of for certain) that have implemented Air Raid concept and principles. What I'd describe what I'm expecting out of Kingsbury as probably sounds like it'd be the exact same (i.e. I'm expecting Air Raid with WCO tweaks whereas I think we've been seeing the implementation of WCO with Air Raid tweaks for close to half a decade now), but I do expect it to be slightly different. More to my original point. The base concepts we can likely anticipate are: Majority of snaps out of shotgun 65%+ passing in terms of snap count Emphasis on No-Huddle and Up-Tempo (and as a result, likely pre-snap reads) The biggest question, for me at least, and what's likely to dictate whether there is a concern for Rosen in the scheme is whether he runs with the increased OL splits that we've tended to see in collegiate Air Raid offenses (which, so much as I can remember, we really haven't seen used - without some notable scaling back in terms of the size of those gaps, in the pro schemes that have utilized Air Raid concepts). What we could ultimately end up with is something close to Hal Mumme's BYU offensive scheme that Steve Young came out of (which I know Leach has said was a major influence on his scheme). 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
11sanchez11 Posted March 9, 2019 Share Posted March 9, 2019 On 3/7/2019 at 6:24 AM, SmittyBacall said: It's worth noting that Baker is standing on the ball of his foot in that Instagram photo while Kyler's foot is flat on the ground. More importantly he is closer to the camera. Like Kyler looks way bigger than the dudes behind him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
11sanchez11 Posted March 9, 2019 Share Posted March 9, 2019 On 3/7/2019 at 8:20 PM, The LBC said: I'm curious as to why people say this. No disputing that Murray is more athletic than Rosen is, but when people say "Murray fits Kingsbury's scheme better than Rosen does," the first thing that pops into my mind is that these people really don't know what Kingsbury's version of the Air Raid Offense actually is. When I see/hear that Murray is more athletic than Rosen as a reason he fits better I wonder if KK runs a triple option offense. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
11sanchez11 Posted March 9, 2019 Share Posted March 9, 2019 9 hours ago, The LBC said: 65%+ passing in terms of snap count You sure? I remember seeing the %s of his offenses and was surprised how often they ran the ball. Iirc it was over 40%. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goldfishwars Posted March 11, 2019 Share Posted March 11, 2019 Looks like someone is trying to drive down the Rosen price by feeding Casserly some disinfo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlNFL19 Posted March 11, 2019 Share Posted March 11, 2019 1 hour ago, goldfishwars said: Looks like someone is trying to drive down the Rosen price by feeding Casserly some disinfo I hate Charley Casserly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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