Is Philip Rivers a HoF QB?

[Bearerofnews]

10 minutes ago, Elky said:

Without using stats, can someone really explain why Rivers should go into the Hall?

He has taken 1 of the worst run franchises in all of sports and made them a perennial contender most of his career (made the playoffs or missed by 1 game). Something his predessor failed to do (1st ballot HOFer Drew Brees) that's eliminating the fact he has the 9th most wins in NFL history of any qb, multiple records in terms of comebacks and streaks, has produced with 4 different head coaches (playoffs and probowl in the same year with 4 diff head coaches) is 3rd on consecutive start list for qbs all time. One of the greatest abilities is availability. 1 of only 13 qbs ever with atleast 8 probowls.

If not for a Dynasty in the same conference Rivers very likely could of been in 2 to 3 SBs. 

 

[Elky]

3 minutes ago, Bearerofnews said:

He has taken 1 of the worst run franchises in all of sports and made them a perennial contender most of his career. Something his predessor failed to do (1st ballot HOFer Drew Brees) thqts eliminating fact he has 9th most wins in NFL history of any qb, multiple records in terms of comebacks and streaks, has produced with 4 different head coaches (playoffs and probowl in the same year with 4 diff head coaches) is 3rd on consecutive start list for qbs all time. One of the greatest abilities is availability. 1 of only 13 qbs ever with atleast 8 probowls.

If not for a Dynasty in the same conference Rivers very likely could of been in 2 to 3 SBs. 

 

No, LaDainian Tomlinson turned that franchise around. The team started winning more consistently in 2004 when Rivers was on the bench.

[Bearerofnews]

14 minutes ago, Elky said:

No, LaDainian Tomlinson turned that franchise around. The team started winning more consistently in 2004 when Rivers was on the bench.

LTs first 4 years Chargers were 29-35. Mind you this was with Brees and Gates and Marty who is superior to Norv and Mccoy (2 horrible head coaches)

Rivers first 4 years starting Chargers were 46-18 and 3 of those years was with Norv.

[Elky]

8 minutes ago, Bearerofnews said:

LTs first 4 years Chargers were 29-35. Mind you this was with Brees and Gates and Marty who is superior to Norv and Mccoy (2 horrible head coaches)

Rivers first 4 years starting Chargers were 46-18 and 3 of those years was with Norv.

So what about the other 9 seasons when he went 72-72? Rivers has never won a Super Bowl, never won MVP and isn't a consistent winner. Last season was the first time he won 10+ games in over a decade.

[Bearerofnews]

17 minutes ago, Elky said:

So what about the other 9 seasons when he went 72-72? Rivers has never won a Super Bowl, never won MVP and isn't a consistent winner. Last season was the first time he won 10+ games in over a decade.

Norv Turner and Mike Mccoy happened. Coaches who can't even keep coordinator jobs, let alone head coaching. 

He is still 9th all time on the list of total wins and 7 away from 8th. He would be behind Ben, Elway, Marino, Brees, Favre, Peyton and Brady. 

If ya look at winning seasons he is tied with Montana and Marino with 8, 1 behind Brees and Elway. With Ben, Favre, Peyton and Brady rounding the top 4. 

[lancerman]

4 hours ago, frenchie said:

as of right now, the numbers are good enough to get him in eventually; definitely not first ballot though.  Even though he doesn't currently have a lot of the accolades that many of the others have, he's been a top 5 QB for most, if not all of his career during what I consider a golden age at the position.

If he can win either a MVP award or at least a SB appearance before he retires, I think he'll be a lock.

I sure hope that's a joke... You're seriously suggesting Cam Newton will get consideration, based on rushing stats, but Rivers has 'no shot'?  

Newton, while he may have a MVP,  aside from that one season, he's been average or worse since he's been in the league.  His MVP season was an obvious anomaly.   Rivers on the other hand, has been a consistent top 5 QB for his entire career.  There is no comparison here. 

To an extent, I really don't have a problem with Matt Ryan getting in; not sure why everyone keeps using him as a reason to not let Rivers in;  Ryan is a legit top 5 QB; has been for a while, and will probably play another 7-8 years.  I have almost no doubt he'll get in at some point.

but seriously, to bring up Cam is laughable.  and by the way, his precious rushing stats (which nobody should care about, by virtue of him being a QB) probably shaved 5 years off of his career, which means he'll likely never acquire the passing numbers to ultimately get consideration.

Moon and Fouts really lowered the bar for the HOF, particularly Moon.  Moon had 2 legitimately great seasons 90 and 95.  Outside of that, he was ok, but nothing special.  At no point was Moon a top5 QB during his era, albeit a very competitive era, but still.   Fouts really doesn't belong either IMO, but at least he was one of the best for a stretch in the early 80s, but like Moon, he threw it to the other team too much.   Bottom line, with these two in, Rivers easily gets in, just not first ballot. 

Moon and Fouts are the precedent for guys like Bledsoe, Palmer, and Romo, and really a host of others who should be definite NOs, but now have arguments.

The numbers aren’t good enough for him to eventually get in. He has too many peers that are in the same park that if he retires one year earlier than any of them he’ll get passed in stats. Then he has guys like Ryan and Stafford who are going to most likely pass him along with Rodgers. The longer he waits, the worse his case gets. It’s an entirely statistical case based off passing yards and passing TD’s over a career. And we’ve already seen guys retire in the top 10 and not get in the HOF. Within 5 years he won’t be top 5 in any stats. If he’s on the ballot for 5 years he’s going to be fringe top 10 and then guys like Luck will be knocking at the same door to pass him. This is one of those situations where the longer he waits the worse his case gets. Stats are inflated and they continue to be inflated. 

Now you crapped all over Cam. I can guarantee that when Cam’s case is presented, him being the all time leader in QB rushes will be a huge piece of his argument. He’ll probably go down as the best running QB of all time. And those statistics will all be NFL leading for his position. Rivers statistics aren’t. He’s nowhere close to getting near the elite guys of his era in the two stars he’s good in. Also Cam’s stats will have far more longevity. Rivers will need guys to have career ending injuries to simply not get passed on all time lists before he’s eligible. 

Guys like Stabler had a much better argument than Rivers and he waited nearly 30 years. If Rivers waits 30 years he’ll be nowhere near top 10 in yards and touchdowns. And then what is is his argument? He had a lot of Pro Bowls?

Also you’re being disengenous with the Fouts and Moon comparison. Those guys did not trailblaze to let guys like Bledsoe or Palmer. And Romo’s never going to be a HOF’er. 

Also I can’t imagine you know much about Fouts. He was a perennial All Pro from the late 70’s to early 80’s. There was a good 5-6year period in his career where he was widely viewed as the best or one of the two or three best QB’s in the league. Also he’s on the All Decade team. You have HOF voters like King and others who have said that holds a lot of weight with voters. Rivers has no shot at any All Decade Team. He’s never remotely near the top 3 or 4 of his era. He probably should have been MVP in 1982 and actually did get it from the PFWA. So that’s a totally different case. And can only imagine people making it know very little about Fouts. 

Moon..... let’s just say Moon got in for more historical reasons that don’t really apply to Rivers or anybody else in league history and unless you are going to argue that Rivers has some trancedental impact on race in the NFL, I really would avoid making that comparison. 

[lancerman]

2 minutes ago, Bearerofnews said:

Norv Turner and Mike Mccoy happened. Coaches who can't even keep coordinator jobs, let alone head coaching. 

He is still 9th all time on the list of total wins and 7 away from 8th. He would be behind Ben, Elway, Marino, Brees, Favre, Peyton and Brady. 

If ya look at winning seasons he is tied with Montana and Marino with 8, 1 behind Brees and Elway. With Ben, Favre, Peyton and Brady rounding the top 4. 

Guy who speaks for HOF voters “well if you ignore overall wins and give him credit for going 9-7 a few times he technically is tied with Marino who used to own the stat book and is still the only QB whose stats still have held up, or Montana who was injured and missing time like crazy during the end. 

You really have the pulse of the HOF voters. They are totally just going to manipulate stats to get a guy in 

[Bearerofnews]

17 minutes ago, lancerman said:

Guy who speaks for HOF voters “well if you ignore overall wins and give him credit for going 9-7 a few times he technically is tied with Marino who used to own the stat book and is still the only QB whose stats still have held up, or Montana who was injured and missing time like crazy during the end. 

You really have the pulse of the HOF voters. They are totally just going to manipulate stats to get a guy in 

Says the guy who thinks HOF voters are going to revere Cam's rushing stats and avg passing stats. Or Staffords volume stats with 1 probowl, avg efficiency stats, avg seasonal consistency stats, 0 playoff wins, 3 playoff berths. 

Voters are not going to lift every single rock they can possibly find to keep Rivers out like you are. Even with all the rocks you keep lifting you havent made a compelling argument yet. Honestly you are just all over the place. Apply different criteria to different situations, different variables to diff outcomes. I mean this respectively as possible, its a complete mess. Debating 101, pick the foundation of your argument and stick with it consistently. 

I do speak for voters when i say they vote based on career totality and not effect of singular outlier seasons. 

 

[lancerman]

51 minutes ago, Bearerofnews said:

He has taken 1 of the worst run franchises in all of sports and made them a perennial contender most of his career (made the playoffs or missed by 1 game). Something his predessor failed to do (1st ballot HOFer Drew Brees) that's eliminating the fact he has the 9th most wins in NFL history of any qb, multiple records in terms of comebacks and streaks, has produced with 4 different head coaches (playoffs and probowl in the same year with 4 diff head coaches) is 3rd on consecutive start list for qbs all time. One of the greatest abilities is availability. 1 of only 13 qbs ever with atleast 8 probowls.

If not for a Dynasty in the same conference Rivers very likely could of been in 2 to 3 SBs. 

 

Perrenial contender for most of his career? Since 2010 the Chargers have only qualified for the playoffs twice and have only won a single playoff game in the past 10 years. They were contenders from 2006-2008. That’s 3 years of his career where he consistently made the playoffs and was one of the top teams in the NFL. He hasn’t even won his division this decade.  

“Perrenial contender”.

[Bearerofnews]

4 minutes ago, lancerman said:

Perrenial contender for most of his career? Since 2010 the Chargers have only qualified for the playoffs twice and have only won a single playoff game in the past 10 years. They were contenders from 2006-2008. That’s 3 years of his career where he consistently made the playoffs and was one of the top teams in the NFL. He hasn’t even won his division this decade.  

“Perrenial contender”.

I said perrenial contender who made the playoffs or missed it by 1 game.  See again, you cant even get the data correct, which tells me you really havent followed Rivers career. You are waaaaaay on the outside using snap lenses.  2009 Chargers went 13-3. They won 2 playoff games since 2013. 

Lost the division by a game in 2010, 2011 and 2017. Missed the playoffs by 1 game in 2014. 

Atleast get the stats and data right.

[lancerman]

Just now, Bearerofnews said:

Says the guy who thinks HOF voters are going to revere Cam's rushing stats and avg passing stats. Or Staffords volume stats with 1 probowl, avg efficiency stats, avg seasonal consistency stats, 0 playoff wins, 1 playoff berth. 

Voters are not going to lift every single rock they can possibly find to keep Rivers out like you are. Even with all the rocks you keep lifting you havent made a compelling argument yet. Honestly you are just all over the place. Apply different criteria to different situations, different variables to diff outcomes. I mean this respectively as possible, its a complete mess. Debating 101, pick the foundation of your argument and stick with it consistently. 

I do speak for voters when i say they vote based on career totality and not effect of singular outlier seasons. 

 

Oh so when one of the writers presents Cam’s case the centerpiece to it won’t be how he’s glinh to be the career leader in QB rushing? If you think that you are on drugs. They might not let him in. But he’s got a way better show or more of a hook to his case than Rivers. Best rushing QB of all time, had one of the best QB seasons of all time. Went to a Super Bowl and won an MVP.

 

“Voters aren’t going to lift every single rock”. Oh then why have you spent the last two days twisting every star you could find around to make Rivers look good? Have you heard of the word hypocrite? 

“I do speak for voters”. Completely delusional. This is the man making the case for Rovers. A Chargers fan who twists facts and jumps through hoops, has been deliberately misleading in his arguments, and claims he speaks for HOF voters when in the same breath he’s been screaming about how many Pro Bowls a guy went to. 

You have no clue 

[lancerman]

5 minutes ago, Bearerofnews said:

I said perrenial contender who made the playoffs or missed it by 1 game.  See again, you cant even get the data correct, which tells me you really havent followed Rivers career. You are waaaaaay on the outside using snap lenses.  2009 Chargers went 13-3. They won 2 playoff games since 2013. 

Lost the division by a game in 2010, 2011 and 2017. Missed the playoffs by 1 game in 2014. 

Atleast get the stats and data right.

Well when you change the definition of perrenial contender to include “guy whose team hasn’t won their division in a decade and only has one playoff win since 2010” yeah you’ll find some crazy contenders. 

Its like you can twist things around so you can make ridiculous claims based off how much you are willing to stretch the parameters of widely held definition. 

Hint: if you miss the playoffs you aren’t a contender. The Bills made the playoffs a year ago. Nobody thought they were a contender. 

[Bearerofnews]

19 minutes ago, lancerman said:

Oh so when one of the writers presents Cam’s case the centerpiece to it won’t be how he’s glinh to be the career leader in QB rushing? If you think that you are on drugs. They might not let him in. But he’s got a way better show or more of a hook to his case than Rivers. Best rushing QB of all time, had one of the best QB seasons of all time. Went to a Super Bowl and won an MVP.

 

“Voters aren’t going to lift every single rock”. Oh then why have you spent the last two days twisting every star you could find around to make Rivers look good? Have you heard of the word hypocrite? 

“I do speak for voters”. Completely delusional. This is the man making the case for Rovers. A Chargers fan who twists facts and jumps through hoops, has been deliberately misleading in his arguments, and claims he speaks for HOF voters when in the same breath he’s been screaming about how many Pro Bowls a guy went to. 

You have no clue 

I assure you, Cams rushing stats as a QB will be a brief discussion and if you think because of a single outlier season of Cams gives him an edge over Rivers in the HOF discussion, you really are void of understanding what makes HOFers. Honest question, how long you been a football fan? Ive never in my life seen someone so obsessed with singularity values when discussing a CAREER achievement of HOF this is bizarre. I'm guessing you prolly know you are wrong but have too much pride to admit it at this point.

No im just giving you factual stats, achievements that have a great landmark track record for HOF votes. You are paraphrasing my quotes to create your own narrative. I see many non-Charger fans who share my overall sentiment in this thread alone. I saw it all year from every major media outlet. Look i get as fans, when we are watching or reading media insight or perspective (alot of these guys are voters or within the circles of voters) we dont pay much attention to the dialogue when they are talking about players not on our favorite team. But when they talk about players on our favorite team, we pay closer attention. All i heard during the 2018 season from these outlets is how Rivers is a HOFer.

Probowls are huge for voters. Only 39 players have made 10 or more probowls and all of the ones retired are HOFers. The ones not are Joe Thomas, Fitzgerald, Brees, Brady and Peyton. 

13 qbs have made the probowl 8 times or more. They are all in the HOF except Peyton, Brees, Brady and Rivers. You are suggesting Rivers will be the single outlier.

Let me ask you is there qbs who won a ring not in the hall? Or won an MVP not in the hall, or an all pro not in the hall, or even 2 rings not in the hall?

Track record shows when it comes to 8 probowls there is 100% qbs in the hall who are eligible. I like those probabilities.

[Bearerofnews]

16 minutes ago, lancerman said:

Well when you change the definition of perrenial contender to include “guy whose team hasn’t won their division in a decade and only has one playoff win since 2010” yeah you’ll find some crazy contenders. 

Its like you can twist things around so you can make ridiculous claims based off how much you are willing to stretch the parameters of widely held definition. 

Hint: if you miss the playoffs you aren’t a contender. The Bills made the playoffs a year ago. Nobody thought they were a contender. 

Again, 2 playoff wins since 2013.  Being a playoff contender is what? Making the playoffs or contending for a playoff spot. Missing out on the playoffs or division title by 1 win, is not a playoff contender?

If you miss the SUPERBOWL, you can still of been a superbowl contender. When a fighter is in position for a title fight, they are a contender. If you are lobbying every year almost, for a playoff spot or division title and are within a single game, you are a playoff contender.

[lancerman]

4 minutes ago, Bearerofnews said:

I assure you, Cams rushing stats as a QB will be a brief discussion and if you think because of a single outlier season of Cams gives him an edge over Rivers in the HOF discussion, you really are void of understanding what makes HOFers. Honest question, how long you been a football fan? Ive never in my life seen someone so obsessed with singularity values when discussing a CAREER achievement of HOF this is bizarre. I'm guessing you prolly know you are wrong but have too much pride to admit it at this point.

No im just giving you factual stats, achievements that have a great landmark track record for HOF votes. You are paraphrasing my quotes to create your own narrative. I see many non-Charger fans who share my overall sentiment in this thread alone. I saw it all year from every major media outlet. Look i get as fans, when we are watching or reading media insight or perspective (alot of these guys are voters or within the circles of voters) we dont pay much attention to the dialogue when they are talking about players not on our favorite team. But when they talk about players on our favorite team, we pay closer attention. All i heard during the 2018 season from these outlets is how Rivers is a HOFer.

Probowls are huge for voters. Only 39 players have made 10 or more probowls and all of the ones retired are HOFers. The ones not are Joe Thomas, Fitzgerald, Brees, Brady and Peyton. 

13 qbs have made the probowl 8 times or more. They are all in the HOF except Peyton, Brees, Brady and Rivers. You are suggesting Rivers will be the single outlier.

Let me ask you is there qbs who won a ring not in the hall? Or won an MVP not in the hall, or an all pro not in the hall, or even 2 rings not in the hall?

Track record shows when it comes to 8 probowls there is 100% qbs in the hall who are eligible. I like those probabilities.

“I assure you”

You don’t have the credibility for that