Ravens trade Joe Flacco to Broncos

[sp6488]

6 hours ago, Thomas5737 said:

Uh, https://www.reuters.com/article/us-nfl-ravens-flacco/flacco-signs-six-year-contract-with-ravens-idUSBRE92316P20130304

The Ravens left themselves no choice with his contract. This is the first year where they can financially escape his contract, only $16 million in dead money.

You're confusing two different concepts.

1. "We can't move on from this guy because the financial repercussions of such a move are untenable."
2. "We will continue to play this guy because he won a super bowl once despite current performance levels."***

My problem is with the insinuation that the decision is being made based on #2.

Even if the contract was given to him post-SB, there was undoubtedly a great deal of forward performance projection that went into it.  The information (current performance level) available under item (2) above would not have been available when you awarded the contract driving item (1).

My problem is with the statement, "Eli and Flacco only have starting jobs because they won SBs." They may have received contracts solely for that reason (questionable), but then the issue is the contract status, not that teams are blinded by the hardware.  Contract would be irrelevant to Broncos (no dead money being taken on), so it's far more than semantics.

I will say it once again just in case it gets lost, teams often make poor decisions.  And they are certainly not above reproach.  I just believe that convincing ourselves that they are making such decisions in a cartoonishly bad way while we awesome, smart people would have an infinitely better process if only because there's is SO bad is just a bit lame.

*** There's a third non-mutually exclusive option, that the coaching staff could still believe that he provided the best current option of those available to win games.

[Thomas5737]

17 minutes ago, sp6488 said:

You're confusing two different concepts.

1. "We can't move on from this guy because the financial repercussions of such a move are untenable."
2. "We will continue to play this guy because he won a super bowl once despite current performance levels."***

My problem is with the insinuation that the decision is being made based on #2.

Even if the contract was given to him post-SB, there was undoubtedly a great deal of forward performance projection that went into it.  The information (current performance level) available under item (2) above would not have been available when you awarded the contract driving item (1).

My problem is with the statement, "Eli and Flacco only have starting jobs because they won SBs." They may have received contracts solely for that reason (questionable), but then the issue is the contract status, not that teams are blinded by the hardware.  Contract would be irrelevant to Broncos (no dead money being taken on), so it's far more than semantics.

I will say it once again just in case it gets lost, teams often make poor decisions.  And they are certainly not above reproach.  I just believe that convincing ourselves that they are making such decisions in a cartoonishly bad way while we awesome, smart people would have an infinitely better process if only because there's is SO bad is just a bit lame.

*** There's a third non-mutually exclusive option, that the coaching staff could still believe that he provided the best current option of those available to win games.

Well Flacco was statistically better last year than he has been in the last few years and had the lowest interception percentage of his career and lost his job. The Ravens used a high pick the year prior to being able to get away from Flacco's contract. Because he won a title he got paid (highest contract ever at the time) which locked him as a roster position until 2019. They were stuck with Flacco because they opted to give him that contract after they won the title. Prior to that, I'm sure you remember, there were question marks if they would go another direction. Their hands were tied keeping him after the contract so it wasn't stupidity on their part each year not to bring in another option or a quality QB to compete with him because they made their bed after the 2012 season and hoped he would turn into elite Flacco, he just didn't had they had no other choice but to ride it out. He is at the bottom of the competent starter list, he isn't a trainwreck he just isn't going to be a first option, or 20th option, more like 23rd best case scenario, just like Eli.

[sp6488]

3 minutes ago, Thomas5737 said:

Well Flacco was statistically better last year than he has been in the last few years and had the lowest interception percentage of his career and lost his job. The Ravens used a high pick the year prior to being able to get away from Flacco's contract. Because he won a title he got paid (highest contract ever at the time) which locked him as a roster position until 2019. They were stuck with Flacco because they opted to give him that contract after they won the title. Prior to that, I'm sure you remember, there were question marks if they would go another direction. Their hands were tied keeping him after the contract so it wasn't stupidity on their part each year not to bring in another option or a quality QB to compete with him because they made their bed after the 2012 season and hoped he would turn into elite Flacco, he just didn't had they had no other choice but to ride it out. He is at the bottom of the competent starter list, he isn't a trainwreck he just isn't going to be a first option, or 20th option, more like 23rd best case scenario, just like Eli.

I'm a Ravens fan, so I'm intimately familiar with the whole saga.  Pretty sure everything you're saying is factual, but I'm not sure what it means in the context of responding to my post.

To the bolded, I would say that it is in 100% agreement with my initial point, that to suggest teams/coaches/FOs are simply blinded by a QBs SB hardware and that's all that goes into the decision-making process (as the poster to whom I initially responded stated) is just not correct.

[Thomas5737]

54 minutes ago, sp6488 said:

I'm a Ravens fan, so I'm intimately familiar with the whole saga.  Pretty sure everything you're saying is factual, but I'm not sure what it means in the context of responding to my post.

To the bolded, I would say that it is in 100% agreement with my initial point, that to suggest teams/coaches/FOs are simply blinded by a QBs SB hardware and that's all that goes into the decision-making process (as the poster to whom I initially responded stated) is just not correct.

Their situation was directly related to him starting because he won a SB but I believe they would have moved on prior to now if the contract was movable. They made a choice several years ago that they were all in on Flacco pretty much no matter how well or poorly he performed and just didn't win that gamble. The coaches couldn't do anything about it the front office made that choice for them.

[UtahUtesFan]

Case Keenum & Joe Flacco are basically the same level of QB at this point. I don't understand why they did this other than the fact they want to move on from Keenum quickly and think they can rekindle the Flacco magic. 

[Uncle Buck]

On 2/16/2019 at 8:07 PM, vike daddy said:

if Tebow was good and Elway made a mistake, then why didn't he flourish with another team? or, you know, at least make their roster?

He was never given enough of a chance to develop.  Other teams tried him out but probably decided that the hype that came along with him wasn't worth dealing with during the time it would take to develop him.  Elway had the perfect opportunity to do this.  He acquired a quarterback in Peyton Manning who would make it so even the most ardent Tebow fans wouldn't be able to try and say "Tebow should be the starter".  All he had to do was keep him on the roster and let him learn the NFL game and work on his throwing motion.  He throws a football like a baseball player throws a baseball.  The guy is athletic enough where I think he could have changed his throwing motion if given the time.  My point is that Tebow's athleticism and leadership abilities should have made him well worth keeping on the roster in that environment.

Joe Kapp didn't have the best form either when it came to throwing the football, but he sure did get the job done.

[theJ]

1 hour ago, Uncle Buck said:

He was never given enough of a chance to develop.  Other teams tried him out but probably decided that the hype that came along with him wasn't worth dealing with during the time it would take to develop him.  Elway had the perfect opportunity to do this.  He acquired a quarterback in Peyton Manning who would make it so even the most ardent Tebow fans wouldn't be able to try and say "Tebow should be the starter".  All he had to do was keep him on the roster and let him learn the NFL game and work on his throwing motion.  He throws a football like a baseball player throws a baseball.  The guy is athletic enough where I think he could have changed his throwing motion if given the time.  My point is that Tebow's athleticism and leadership abilities should have made him well worth keeping on the roster in that environment.

Joe Kapp didn't have the best form either when it came to throwing the football, but he sure did get the job done.

The motion itself doesn't matter.  What matters is windup/release time, and accuracy.  Tebow had a really slow windup and pitch, and was pretty inaccurate.

Not to dispute that he could have been a good backup somewhere.  I happen to think he could have, given some more development time and put in the right system.  But the media circus was crazy, so he wasn't worth it.  I would have done the same as Elway in that situation.  It was a fluky season, just like Derek Anderson in 07, Josh McCown in 2013, and Case Keenum in 2017.  Sometimes the stars align and you can win some games with a backup level QB.  But it doesn't mean you should go in all in on the guy (and in fact those three examples are exactly why you shouldn't, which makes it all the more odd that Elway has decided to now hitch his wagon to both Case Keenum and Joe Flacco...oh well).

[vike daddy]

2 hours ago, Uncle Buck said:

Joe Kapp didn't have the best form either when it came to throwing the football, but he sure did get the job done.

i was a plenty big fan of Joe Kapp's, but my gawd man the era he played football in hardly resembled today's. making comparisons between players' skill sets pretty immaterial.

[Thomas5737]

3 hours ago, theJ said:

The motion itself doesn't matter.  What matters is windup/release time, and accuracy. 

Hmmm where have I heard this before?

[theJ]

1 hour ago, Thomas5737 said:

Hmmm where have I heard this before?

Did you already post it?  I didn't read the whole thread.  It's a bear.  I was bored, waiting for VPN to connect at work, so i posted about a guy who hasn't played in 6 years lol.

I really don't care.

[Thomas5737]

2 hours ago, theJ said:

Did you already post it?  I didn't read the whole thread.  It's a bear.  I was bored, waiting for VPN to connect at work, so i posted about a guy who hasn't played in 6 years lol.

I really don't care.

Nah, I think maybe I heard it from my wife, don't know why we would be talking about football though.

[Uncle Buck]

19 hours ago, vike daddy said:

i was a plenty big fan of Joe Kapp's, but my gawd man the era he played football in hardly resembled today's. making comparisons between players' skill sets pretty immaterial.

I figured you would bring up the era, and to that, I will just point out once again that in his first season as a starter (in this era, not Joe Kapp's era) Tebow took over a 1-4 team, led them to the playoffs, and won a playoff game.   

[theJ]

1 hour ago, Uncle Buck said:

I figured you would bring up the era, and to that, I will just point out once again that in his first season as a starter (in this era, not Joe Kapp's era) Tebow took over a 1-4 team, led them to the playoffs, and won a playoff game.   

Derek Anderson
Josh McCown
Case Keenum

It's not always about the QB, and success isn't always repeatable. 

I predict the Ravens will find out the same with Lamar Jackson this coming year if he doesn't improve as a passer.

Let's face it, as a passer Tebow was pretty awful.  They had a unique system in a place to hide some of that, but being a one trick offense isn't a recipe for consistent success.  He would have had to get much better as a passer to repeat that success the following year.

There's a reason teams don't hike it straight to a RB who can maybe-sorta-kinda-on occasion throw the ball.  That offense doesn't work in the NFL, and isn't seen post-high school anymore.

[vike daddy]

Many people were surprised by Denver’s decision to trade for quarterback Joe Flacco, but none were more surprised than quarterback Case Keenum.

Keenum: “Elway called me that morning and we had a great conversation, which he didn’t have to do — I appreciated that. It was definitely a shock. It was a surprise for us. For us, we’re definitely disappointed. It’s not something we wanted to happen. I know everybody is doing their job and John feels like it was a chance to help the Broncos out. It’s really open-ended right now [if I leave Denver], we don’t know what’s going to happen. This is still very fresh. A lot of these emotions we’re talking about are still going on and still happening. Who knows what’s going to be in store? I don’t, for sure.”

However it plays out, Keenum will make at least $7 million this year. Which means that, if Keenum is released, a new team could sign Keenum for at or near the six-figure league minimum, putting the Broncos on the hook for the rest.

https://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2019/02/21/case-keenum-was-shocked-by-trade-for-joe-flacco/

[Nabbs4u]

13 hours ago, vike daddy said:

However it plays out, Keenum will make at least $7 million this year. Which means that, if Keenum is released, a new team could sign Keenum for at or near the six-figure league minimum, putting the Broncos on the hook for the rest.

Good, They should  be on the hook! Nothing like selling a FA on how he should come to your Organization,  convince him he's the QB we need to get back on track only to be kicked to the curb less then a year later!

Elway might have some swamp land in Florida for sale too?