Leoric Posted March 7, 2019 Share Posted March 7, 2019 On 2/14/2019 at 2:17 PM, Malik said: Moon is a little underrated. He didn't get to play in the NFL until he was 28. He is probable he's still top 5 or so in a lot of stats if he was allowed in the NFL earlier during his athletic prime. Moon is massively underrated by anyone that didn’t watch him play. He played on some truly poo teams and elevated his team. Moon, Rivers and Testaverde are all prime examples of QB’s that landed in poo situations and didn’t get the career team success they really deserved. That being said Rivers isn’t getting into the hall of fame unless the Chargers won a championship before he retires. I don’t care if he finishes with an MVP which he should have beat Manning out for one of his seasons but Peyton. Rivers needs a championship to get in. Without it, he’ll never get in without a media career following his retirement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bearerofnews Posted March 12, 2019 Share Posted March 12, 2019 On 3/7/2019 at 3:09 PM, Boltstrikes said: Moon is massively underrated by anyone that didn’t watch him play. He played on some truly poo teams and elevated his team. Moon, Rivers and Testaverde are all prime examples of QB’s that landed in poo situations and didn’t get the career team success they really deserved. That being said Rivers isn’t getting into the hall of fame unless the Chargers won a championship before he retires. I don’t care if he finishes with an MVP which he should have beat Manning out for one of his seasons but Peyton. Rivers needs a championship to get in. Without it, he’ll never get in without a media career following his retirement. Sorry but you are 100% wrong. If Rivers retired today, he will be in the HOF at some point. The fact his career is continuing, greatly increases his chances. He DOES NOT need a chip to be in the HOF. I promise you on my life. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkippyX Posted March 14, 2019 Share Posted March 14, 2019 Guys like Namath and Kelly are in under special considerations. No point in comparing the 10-12th best QB of his era to them. Rivers and those guys don't belong in on merit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bobikus Posted March 15, 2019 Share Posted March 15, 2019 Namath's AFL MVP years should have just been years 2 and 3 of a Daryle Lamonica 3-peat anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tetsujin Posted March 15, 2019 Share Posted March 15, 2019 I hate to say it but I don't think Bob Griese was that special. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bobikus Posted March 15, 2019 Share Posted March 15, 2019 12 minutes ago, freak_of_nature said: I hate to say it but I don't think Bob Griese was that special. More of a "pretty good for a pretty long time (by the standards of that era)" sort of player. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tetsujin Posted March 15, 2019 Share Posted March 15, 2019 20 minutes ago, Bobikus said: More of a "pretty good for a pretty long time (by the standards of that era)" sort of player. And the undefeated season was played almost entirely by the backup QB. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bobikus Posted March 15, 2019 Share Posted March 15, 2019 1 minute ago, freak_of_nature said: And the undefeated season was played almost entirely by the backup QB. Earl Morall is really such an interesting figure. Just this career journeyman who in one year comes off the bench and has an MVP year for the Colts that's maybe even better than Johnny U's season the year before on the same team, then kinda vanishes until he shows up again and plays the bulk of the undefeated season. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bobikus Posted March 16, 2019 Share Posted March 16, 2019 On 2/15/2019 at 10:04 AM, NJerseypaint said: Stuff about Namath's stats Yeah this convinces me well enough that Namath was above average for his time, but not exactly convincing that he was statistically HoF caliber. Most of that hyper focuses on hating comp%, but his comp% wasn't significantly worse than his peers in his AFL days (he was better than average in the stat through the 60s). The "gambler" style was also pretty common in the AFL in general, where his peers included the "mad bomber." His yards/completion were above average in the AFL but not exceptional (the time he lead in it was a 3-way tie), the times he lead that stat in the NFL were in '72 (which is the main year pointed to as bad QB rating stats dragging down a good y/a on the stat sheet) and '74. I agree with comp% being overvalued, but his int% was also a big part of his low rating. In AY/A he was never higher than 3rd in the AFL years (in a 10 team league). He lead in it in '72 but his int rate was still enough of a factor that his league leading 6.9AY/A would have jumped to 7.5 with just a league average int rate. On that note '72 was kind of a down year on passing stats in general, only year in the 70-77 NFL era no one topped 7.0. His sack% was indeed great, but calling it extreme is probably a bit of a stretch when the Jets only lead in that stat in 66 and 65, one of those years being when Namath split some time with Taliaferro, and the sacks weren't happening any more often with him on the field. So yeah, I'll buy that he was above average, sometimes even "well above average." But I don't see anything indicating that he was HoF worthy on the stat sheet unless you want to also brush off some spots in canton for busts of guys like Lamonica, Hadl, Gabriel, Brodie, or yes, Rivers, who lead in Y/A more times than Namath in a more competitive era and has a similar net y/a relative to era. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heinz D. Posted March 16, 2019 Share Posted March 16, 2019 On 3/13/2019 at 7:54 PM, SkippyX said: Guys like Namath and Kelly are in under special considerations. No point in comparing the 10-12th best QB of his era to them. Rivers and those guys don't belong in on merit. Namath, I can see. There are no "special considerations' surrounding Kelly. 12 hours ago, freak_of_nature said: I hate to say it but I don't think Bob Griese was that special. Thank you. You're right. He really wasn't. Pretty good, but not special. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bobikus Posted March 16, 2019 Share Posted March 16, 2019 17 minutes ago, Heinz D. said: Namath, I can see. There are no "special considerations' surrounding Kelly. 4 SB appearances account for a lot in the eyes of the sort that vote for HoF even if none of those were wins, and he gets a small boost for being part of that 1983 draft class that was already seen as legendary by the time he was up for vote in the same way Rivers always gets talked about as part of that 2004 QB class. Kelly was an efficient passer though, hovering around that the 110 in the pfr index stats, indicating that he was well above average in every passer efficiency measure for his era. He's above Namath in everything but Sack%+, but Rivers is above Kelly on all of them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bearerofnews Posted March 16, 2019 Share Posted March 16, 2019 On 3/13/2019 at 5:54 PM, SkippyX said: Guys like Namath and Kelly are in under special considerations. No point in comparing the 10-12th best QB of his era to them. Rivers and those guys don't belong in on merit. Rivers is the 10th best qb of his era? Not even close. He is top 5 of his era. Warner and Favre played 3 and 5 years into Rivers career. Peyton, Brady, Brees.... then throw in Rodgers and depending who someone likes better or what they value Ben or Rivers. Stop getting carried away. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkippyX Posted March 16, 2019 Share Posted March 16, 2019 1 hour ago, Heinz D. said: Namath, I can see. There are no "special considerations' surrounding Kelly. Thank you. You're right. He really wasn't. Pretty good, but not special. Kelly is in the Hall of Fame for 'going to 4 Super Bowls' He had 21 TDs and 28 picks with a 72.3 rating in the playoffs with basically an All-Star team around him. He had 6 TDs and 15 picks in his 9 final four games (AFCCGs and Super Bowls) Here are his ratings in those 9 games: 35.1 vs Cincy 126.6 vs LA Raiders 81.5 vs New York 31.6 vs Denver 44.8 vs DC 4 picks, 3 fumbles, 1 lost 71.0 vs Miami Following Reich going about 114.0 in his 2 starts 58.9 vs Dallas I think he had 3 turnovers in 8 or 9 drop backs before getting benched 79.2 vs KC 67.1 vs Dallas He did this with an offense that had a solid line with Pro Bowl players and Hall of Famers at RB, WR1, and WR2 (until Lofton left) Ballard x2 Hull x3 (and a 4th year as 1st team all-pro without a pro bowl?) Wolford x3 Ritcher x2 Kelly started 17 playoff games on that loaded Bills team and he had 3 games of 100+ rating Reich started 2 games for the same team and he had 2 games of 100+ rating. Kelly was a sure fire top 5 NFL QB from the start of 1990 through the end of the 1991 regular season. 99.1 rating over those 2 regular seasons and his only excellent statistical playoff run in 1990 The rest is stat compiling by a QB that was not a top 10 level player. He was an 82.7 rated QB in his first 4 years. Kosar was 85.1 Kreig was 85.1 He was an 81.7 rated QB from years 7-10 Kosar was 82.1 Kreig was 80.7 He was 73.2 in his last season. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkippyX Posted March 16, 2019 Share Posted March 16, 2019 Brady, Brees, Rodgers, Manning are beyond any doubt Roethlisberger has more passing yards, 11 less TDs, 12 more game winning drives, and 26 more regular season wins Comparing their playoff careers is laughable Ben had 1 bad season in his entire career and that was because his head went through a windshield a few weeks before training camp This is a 37-20 type rout for Roethlisburger comparing him to 'The Compiler Junior' Eli has more passing yards, 14 less TDs, 7 more game winning drives, and 2 less regular season wins at this point. He also has 2 rings and does not suck in the playoffs Matt Ryan is 4 years younger and will pass all of Rivers numbers if he plays as long. He also has an MVP and a Super Bowl appearance Wilson already overlaps him by 7+ years and he is far superior to Rivers. Cam Newton already overlaps Rivers by 8+ years. Rivers only argument is stats and Cam is on a pace to have something like 55-60 K passing yards 350-400 passing TDs 7-8K rushing yards 100+ rushing TDs Cam has also been league MVP and played in a Super Bowl Cam after age 29 is just about on par for passing yards and TDs where Rivers was after age 31 He is ahead of that pace for comebacks, game winning drives, and playoff wins I am not saying Cam is a current elite QB, but if we are taking 9... he is in and Rivers is out. There is Rivers in 10th Favre overlaps Rivers by 7 years. Warner by 6 years Include them and now there is Rivers in 12th. You are splitting hairs about someone who played a lot of games, compiled a lot of stats, and was meaningless in the playoffs. Maybe he can get a 'Healthier Tony Romo' award in the lobby of the Canton Motel 6. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bobikus Posted March 16, 2019 Share Posted March 16, 2019 I'll take Rivers' chances to get in over Cam and probably Ryan as of now. Wilson is on a pretty strong HoF pace. Eli is a "special considerations" player who has a fairly good shot of getting in despite being an inferior QB to the others in this conversation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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