Is Rivers better than any current HoF QBs?

[Bearerofnews]

6 hours ago, SkippyX said:

Brady, Brees, Rodgers, Manning are beyond any doubt

Roethlisberger has more passing yards, 11 less TDs, 12 more game winning drives, and 26 more regular season wins

• Comparing their playoff careers is laughable
• Ben had 1 bad season in his entire career and that was because his head went through a windshield a few weeks before training camp
• This is a 37-20 type rout for Roethlisburger comparing him to 'The Compiler Junior'

Eli has more passing yards, 14 less TDs, 7 more game winning drives, and 2 less regular season wins at this point.

• He also has 2 rings and does not suck in the playoffs

Matt Ryan is 4 years younger and will pass all of Rivers numbers if he plays as long.

• He also has an MVP and a Super Bowl appearance

Wilson already overlaps him by 7+ years and he is far superior to Rivers.

Cam Newton already overlaps Rivers by 8+ years.

Rivers only argument is stats and Cam is on a pace to have something like 

• 55-60 K passing yards
• 350-400 passing TDs
• 7-8K rushing yards
• 100+ rushing TDs

Cam has also been league MVP and played in a Super Bowl

Cam after age 29 is just about on par for passing yards and TDs where Rivers was after age 31

• He is ahead of that pace for comebacks, game winning drives, and playoff wins

I am not saying Cam is a current elite QB, but if we are taking 9... he is in and Rivers is out.

There is Rivers in 10th

Favre overlaps Rivers by 7 years.

Warner by 6 years

Include them and now there is Rivers in 12th.

 

You are splitting hairs about someone who played a lot of games, compiled a lot of stats, and was meaningless in the playoffs.

Maybe he can get a 'Healthier Tony Romo' award in the lobby of the Canton Motel 6.

You are projecting far too much. Cam, Wilson nor Ryan have been or are better than Rivers. He has outplayed them and been considered the better qb for the duration of their playing span. Wilson is an interesting one, but he just doesn't put up the numbers Rivers does (his efficiency is great but to only have 2 seasons with 4000 yds in this NFL is not elite). Eli is not even close to Rivers thats a joke. Him and Ben started 2 years before Rivers and Rivers will likely lapse them in every positive statline.

 

When Favre, Warner and Rivers all played at the same time, which again was a small window, Rivers outplayed them. They arent his era. They are in the HOF already and Rivers is still playing.

 

Like I said, you have the 4... which in all honesty Rivers has a chance to surpass 2 of them if he continues his current level of play for 4 years. The toss up is Ben. At worst Rivers was 6th best qb of his era. At best currently top 5. 

Do i need to break down all their numbers per season from 06 to show who has individually been the most efficient, productive per season? Let me know. I dont feel like doing it unless i really need to, to make the point.

 

In no world that exist will cam ever touch Rivers career numbers, never.  Wilson and Ryan might, but that depends on alot of things. If Rivers plays another 4 years, his career numbers will likely be in the top 3 across the board. 

Past 4 years Rivers has avg'd 4500 passing yds. If he plays at that level for next 4 years (which is very possible) he will finish with 72,657 passing yds. Which is 2nd to only Brees.

 

He has avgd 30 tds a season past 4 years, if he keeps that pace for next 4 years he will finish with 496 tds which is 5th all time. 

If he continues to have 100 passer rating seasons like he did this last year his career rating will likely move up from 8th. 

 

He will also retire with less ints that Brees, Peyton, Favre, Eli and possibly Ben. 

Rivers 7,8,9,10,11 or 12th best of his era is laughable and illogical and has nothing to do with what team i root for. Horrible take.

[Bearerofnews]

When you say Rivers only argument is "stats" you are basically saying player A's only argument is he has been more productive, consistent and efficient. But hey outside that, he hasnt had the same situational success driven by non-individual attributes.

Show me the qbs on Rivers era who have been more productive, consistent and efficient. I promise you, the list wont exceed your thumb on 1 hand. You can throw in what player B was able to do in a singular year that does not align with the rest of their career, or team driven success. That isnt how you measure "best". Maybe the word you are looking for is "successful". Definitely not "best".

 

Because ive shown when it comes to actual play (production in volume, consistency and efficiency) and not situational achievements or success that Rivers is right there with the so called "big 4". Lucky for the "big 4" they never had to endure Norv and Mccoy, so that their narrative for success would of been drastically altered. 

[game3525]

I find the Rivers HOF debate kind of funny since it isn't really a debate anymore. He will get in.  He has cleared too many statistical and career benchmarks and by the time he is done it just going to be hard to look at his resume and say he won't get in. 

[lancerman]

8 hours ago, Bobikus said:

I'll take Rivers' chances to get in over Cam and probably Ryan as of now.  Wilson is on a pretty strong HoF pace.  Eli is a "special considerations" player who has a fairly good shot of getting in despite being an inferior QB to the others in this conversation.

Rivers has no case over Ryan. There stats are identical for where they are in their careers and Rivers is only ahead for debuting 4 years earlier. Ryan has the MVP/All Pro year and a Super Bowl appearance on his resume. Rivers only has 1 more playoff win than Ryan. 

[Bearerofnews]

3 hours ago, lancerman said:

Rivers has no case over Ryan. There stats are identical for where they are in their careers and Rivers is only ahead for debuting 4 years earlier. Ryan has the MVP/All Pro year and a Super Bowl appearance on his resume. Rivers only has 1 more playoff win than Ryan. 

Rivers has 4 more probowls. Not something acquired in a singular off brand anomaly season. Something achieved through 4 seasons. 

[Bobikus]

32 minutes ago, Bearerofnews said:

Rivers has 4 more probowls. Not something acquired in a singular off brand anomaly season. Something achieved through 4 seasons. 

Yeah pretty much. His overall body of work is better and more consistent, and has a more sustained peak over his 08-10 years.  He also played briefly with LDT, and had Gates, but overall didn't have the same level of premier talent around him as Ryan.  Like I think Rivers does eventually get in, while I'm not sure at all that Ryan does.  Not really sold on how much value one MVP and one SB loss have if that season is a pretty big outlier.

[Bearerofnews]

5 minutes ago, Bobikus said:

Yeah pretty much. His overall body of work is better and more consistent, and has a more sustained peak over his 08-10 years.  He also played briefly with LDT, and had Gates, but overall didn't have the same level of premier talent around him as Ryan.  Like I think Rivers does eventually get in, while I'm not sure at all that Ryan does.

I feel the same way. I think Ryan's production is underrated and early in his career, his clutch play was understated. But the guy has only had 2 seasons where he has led in a single main statline. Rivers has had twice as many. 

Rivers has only started 2 more seasons than Ryan and has 4 more seasons with 25 or more td passes and 2 more 4000 yd seasons and 3 more 100 plus passer rating seasons. 

[game3525]

2 hours ago, Bobikus said:

Yeah pretty much. His overall body of work is better and more consistent, and has a more sustained peak over his 08-10 years.  He also played briefly with LDT, and had Gates, but overall didn't have the same level of premier talent around him as Ryan.  Like I think Rivers does eventually get in, while I'm not sure at all that Ryan does.  Not really sold on how much value one MVP and one SB loss have if that season is a pretty big outlier.

Ryan is going to be an interesting case. His 2016 season is better then anything Rivers has done. But after 2016, I would take Rivers 08-10, 2013, and 2018 over any other Ryan season. It is a classic case of peak vs consistency. 

[Malik]

3 hours ago, game3525 said:

Ryan is going to be an interesting case. His 2016 season is better then anything Rivers has done. But after 2016, I would take Rivers 08-10, 2013, and 2018 over any other Ryan season. It is a classic case of peak vs consistency. 

Who do you think has been the better QB during the post season?

[Bobikus]

Well, they're both equally ringless there.

[game3525]

1 hour ago, Malik said:

Who do you think has been the better QB during the post season?

I would give Ryan the edge there. His lows in the postseason have been worse then Rivers, but you can't overlook 2016.

[43M]

Rivers gets alot of hate he doesnt deserve, and this is coming from someone who was annoyed by him for years;

Rivers is easily a better QB than Eli, who will get in due to nice postseason runs, but at no point has Eli been as consistently good as Rivers.     He is a better pure passer than Ben too IMO, but the gap isnt as wide, and I think there are things Ben does better.     Overall though, if Ben and Eli get in, it feels ridiculous to leave Rivers out.    I really hope he wins a SB to rid all doubt, but SBs arent everything.      They are a huge accomplishment and they do play their part, especially for QBs, but Rivers has been absolutely good enough to get in.

As far as current HOFs....Im not going to get into comparing Rivers to current HOFs that played in different eras....its just not fair, to Rivers or those HOF QBs.    

Bottom line....Rivers may not be first ballot, but Ill be shocked if he doesnt get in....even if he never wins a SB.

[NJerseypaint]

On 3/15/2019 at 9:31 PM, Bobikus said:

Yeah this convinces me well enough that Namath was above average for his time, but not exactly convincing that he was statistically HoF caliber.

What would convince you? SBs? MVPs? Record breaking seasons?

On 3/15/2019 at 9:31 PM, Bobikus said:

I agree with comp% being overvalued, but his int% was also a big part of his low rating.  In AY/A he was never higher than 3rd in the AFL years (in a 10 team league).  He lead in it in '72 but his int rate was still enough of a factor that his league leading 6.9AY/A would have jumped to 7.5 with just a league average int rate.  On that note '72 was kind of a down year on passing stats in general, only year in the 70-77 NFL era no one topped 7.0.

Is this range cherry picked or does it have a reason? And the article discussed using NY/A rather than AY/A because we all know his int% was high. Like Favre, you take the good with the bad.

On 3/15/2019 at 9:31 PM, Bobikus said:

His sack% was indeed great, but calling it extreme is probably a bit of a stretch when the Jets only lead in that stat in 66 and 65, one of those years being when Namath split some time with Taliaferro, and the sacks weren't happening any more often with him on the field.

I don't know how you found data before 69 since there's no reliable data for those years. Other passers being great at avoid sacks doesn't make Namath less great at it, nor does it make it so his sack rates weren't deviations better than his era's average. When the average sk% is 7.8 and you're at 3.9, that's extremely good.

On 3/15/2019 at 9:31 PM, Bobikus said:

But I don't see anything indicating that he was HoF worthy on the stat sheet unless you want to also brush off some spots in canton for busts of guys like Lamonica, Hadl, Gabriel, Brodie, or yes, Rivers, who lead in Y/A more times than Namath in a more competitive era and has a similar net y/a relative to era.

I think Superbowl wins go on the stat sheet. Something neither of those QBs you listed have - yes, including Rivers.

 

Go only by A/YA and Namath is going to seem pedestrian, but take in his honors and awards, his miraculous SB win, his record breaking 4000 passing yard season (not beaten until Fouts a decade later with 16 games vs 14), and that he was consistently a top 3 passing leader, it becomes more clear why he's deserving of his HoF status.

[Malfatron]

On ‎2‎/‎13‎/‎2019 at 10:37 PM, Uncle Buck said:

I sure wouldn't put Moon or Fouts on a list of "weak HOFers".  About the only one on that list I would replace with Rivers would be Ken Stabler, and that could be a bad decision purely because of the era that The Snake played in.

I don't see what any of this has to do with Jake Plummer.

[lancerman]

On 3/16/2019 at 10:09 AM, game3525 said:

I find the Rivers HOF debate kind of funny since it isn't really a debate anymore. He will get in.  He has cleared too many statistical and career benchmarks and by the time he is done it just going to be hard to look at his resume and say he won't get in. 

It isn’t a debate, but that’s because he won’t get in. I’ve yet to see someone who either isn’t a Chargers fan or someone who shows very little knowledge of how the Hall historically handles QB’s make a case for him.

None of these benchmarks for Rivers have ever helped get guys in the Hall. 

We’ve seen guys with top 10 all time stats upon retiring not get in (Bledsoe). We’ve never seen a guy without an All Pro, MVP, or SB get in at the QB position. Never. I never see HOF voters calling him a future HOF’er nor members of the media.

Its usually just fans who often don’t pay attention enough to the HOF to realize that as it stands right now, Rivers would be the least decorated QB in the history of the HOF if he were to make it. And that 5 year waiting period will gut him. Ryan will match or pass him in that time, then Stafford will be sneaking along, then soon after Rivers has waited for Brady, Brees, Rodgers, Ben, Eli to all get in before him, they’ll be debating guys like Ryan and he’ll be moving down the All Time lists and his case will look worse and worse. It’s doubtful he’ll even be in the top 5 in these stats by the time he’s eligible. 

His case isn’t one that ages well. And it isn’t one the Hall has been receptive to