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NFC North Rivals 2019 Talk


dll2000

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On ‎5‎/‎8‎/‎2019 at 4:09 PM, dll2000 said:

IMO, he should have gone in 2nd round based on his film and his athletic upside.

Hope this is a joke. Dude is a freak athlete that ran a 4.5 at the combine at 280. Just say since he got drafted by the Packers he sucks.

Edited by St Vince
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52 minutes ago, beardown3231 said:

Kind of like Mack ending up on the Bears means it was a dumb trade?

Grow up.

For your info I was one of the few on the Packers board that said that trade was a steal and a solid trade for Chicago. Gruden was an idiot for not paying the guy.

If you go back and look at the old week one game thread I was the one that said that trade put you past us talent wise and you guys had the better roster. I also said it will come down to you and Min for the North title. I picked the Bears to beat us at home week one in both game day threads. I always gave the Bears their props.

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5 minutes ago, St Vince said:

For your info I was one of the few on the Packers board that said that trade was a steal and a solid trade for Chicago. Gruden was an idiot for not paying the guy.

If you go back and look at the old week one game thread I was the one that said that trade put you past us talent wise and you guys had the better roster. I also said it will come down to you and Min for the North title. I picked the Bears to beat us at home week one in both game day threads. I always gave the Bears their props.

As you should have, Mack was a proven commodity. Gary has some question marks and plenty of freak athletes have failed to match their draft position.

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53 minutes ago, St Vince said:

For your info I was one of the few on the Packers board that said that trade was a steal and a solid trade for Chicago. Gruden was an idiot for not paying the guy.

If you go back and look at the old week one game thread I was the one that said that trade put you past us talent wise and you guys had the better roster. I also said it will come down to you and Min for the North title. I picked the Bears to beat us at home week one in both game day threads. I always gave the Bears their props.

I'm speaking in regards to the majority of the GB fan base, similarly to how you believe you're speaking to the majority of this fan base. I would bet that most of us don't believe Gary should've went round 2 but thankfully you came in here to discuss this

My goodness I've never seen a 1st round pick this polarizing. Who cares? We'll all know what kind of player he is by week 17 in 2020. For now it's all just guessing and I'd prefer to stop caring until some games are played, but if you all want to continue to argue over the royalty that is Gutekunst, be my guest

Edited by beardown3231
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43 minutes ago, dafreak said:

As you should have, Mack was a proven commodity. Gary has some question marks and plenty of freak athletes have failed to match their draft position.

True but calling Gary who was graded a top 10 talent a  2nd rounder was lunacy. That was my argument. 

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20 minutes ago, beardown3231 said:

I'm speaking on behalf of the majority of the GB fan base, similarly to how you believe you're speaking to the majority of this fan base. I would bet that most of us don't believe Gary should've went round 2.

My goodness I've never seen a 1st round pick this polarizing. Who cares? We'll all know what kind of player he is by week 17 in 2020. For now it's all just guessing and I'd prefer to stop caring until some games are played, but if you all want to continue to argue over the royalty that is Gutekunst, be my guest

I'll be honest I didn't like the pick at first, I wanted Burns at 12. His game reminds me of Aldon Smith and Leonard Floyd. Would've preferred a different body type quick twitch  change of pace edge rusher instead of all thick power rushers.

But Pattine likes the big Julius Peppers types. I hope Gary proves every naysayer wrong including me. He looks the part but doesn't guarantee success, hope he's not Vernon Gholston 2.0.

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1 hour ago, St Vince said:

I'll be honest I didn't like the pick at first, I wanted Burns at 12. His game reminds me of Aldon Smith and Leonard Floyd. Would've preferred a different body type quick twitch  change of pace edge rusher instead of all thick power rushers.

But Pattine likes the big Julius Peppers types. I hope Gary proves every naysayer wrong including me. He looks the part but doesn't guarantee success, hope he's not Vernon Gholston 2.0.

That essentially should be your biggest fear, right there. 

Something that puzzles me is why all the Packers fans assume that the team HAD to go pass rusher at twelve. I mean--why is that, exactly? They'd already improved that group in free agency. So...what am I missing? The offensive line is a finished product? Rodgers doesn't need any more weapons? 

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9 hours ago, St Vince said:

I'll be honest I didn't like the pick at first, I wanted Burns at 12. His game reminds me of Aldon Smith and Leonard Floyd. Would've preferred a different body type quick twitch  change of pace edge rusher instead of all thick power rushers.

But Pattine likes the big Julius Peppers types. I hope Gary proves every naysayer wrong including me. He looks the part but doesn't guarantee success, hope he's not Vernon Gholston 2.0.

Maybe ask yourself this about Gary.  How do you think he compares with Bradley Chubb?

Both are about the same size, similar measurable at the Combine, and both were touted for their athleticism.

Chubb had a great rookie season here in Denver.  Can Gary play up to that level in the NFL as a rookie?

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14 hours ago, St Vince said:

Hope this is a joke. Dude is a freak athlete that ran a 4.5 at the combine at 280. Just say since he got drafted by the Packers he sucks.

I said it before the draft.  I guess I must have known Packers were going to draft him and had precognitive bias. 

About half of first round picks miss.   I'm not taking a high traits underachiever in top 15.   If his traits are good enough, as Gary's are, I would take him in second. 

I said same thing about Robert Nkemdiche sp? before that draft. 

I could be wrong, but my opinion isn't insane.  

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4 hours ago, dll2000 said:

I said it before the draft.  I guess I must have known Packers were going to draft him and had precognitive bias. 

About half of first round picks miss.   I'm not taking a high traits underachiever in top 15.   If his traits are good enough, as Gary's are, I would take him in second. 

I said same thing about Robert Nkemdiche sp? before that draft. 

I could be wrong, but my opinion isn't insane.  

It's more like 75% of first rounders miss but then again our opinions of "miss" may be different. Regardless I would've been ok with the Bears taking Gary in the high 20's, but at 12? Meh. I hope we're right

Edited by beardown3231
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22 hours ago, Heinz D. said:

Something that puzzles me is why all the Packers fans assume that the team HAD to go pass rusher at twelve. I mean--why is that, exactly? They'd already improved that group in free agency. So...what am I missing? The offensive line is a finished product? Rodgers doesn't need any more weapons? 

In terms of needs, I'd say EDGE3 is more important than OL6.  EDGE3 still plays 50%+ of the snaps.  OL6 doesn't play unless they're injured.  And this year's WR class has a lot of solid WRs.  No studs, but a lot of solid WRs.

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Positives on Gary:

1) He was number 1 recruit in entire nation coming out of high school regardless of position.  Consensus number 1.  Nobody even tried to argue otherwise.

2) His combine athletic numbers for size are off the charts.  He is an elite athletic specimen.  Obviously if you can add technique and skill to athletic ability in football then that can take you places.   

3) He is capable of making big plays.  He is quicker, faster and as strong or stronger than just about any O linemen he will face.  

4) He has good closing speed.

5) He plays hard most of the time.

6) Seems to have good character.  

Negatives:

1) Despite his athletic ability, his stats weren't good.  Other MI DE Chase W. that Patriots drafted had better numbers.   Argument I see online is that Gary received special Oline attention that allowed Chase to thrive.  Games I saw say differently.   Teams zone blocked according to zone blocking rules.  Nothing was schemed for Gary.  You could make a legit argument that some teams ran away from him.  Okay.  Remember my position isn't that he is an awful player.  Just not someone I would look at as this game changer out of the gate or someone I would take in top 15 of the NFL Draft.  I would draft this guy in 2nd round all day.   I think 2nd round picks are very valuable.

Unproductive players in college are often unproductive players in NFL.  Not other way around.  That's just history.  Plenty of very productive players don't make it in NFL as well, but few unproductive players suddenly become very productive at next level.  Even guys like James Harrison who were very slow in success in NFL dominated in college when they played.  

Now some guys who were hurt in college did better in NFL.  Like Frank Gore or Terrell Davis, but when they played in college they still looked good. 

You could say what about Clowney?  He also didn't have good stats in college and was also number one recruit etc.  But Clowney also started slow in NFL and hasn't exactly set league on fire in any event.   But that was injuries you say.  Some of it has been injury, but even when healthy Clowney has not been dominant for any type of long stretch.  He has had very good individual games.  He has just been a good player overall.  Still if Gary becomes Clowney then I would consider that a big win for Packers.

2) Lacks skill.  He doesn't really have any plan when he rushes.  He just tries to out athlete his opponent.  

3) Intelligence. Widely reported he got a horrible wonderlic score.  Not sure what is on wonderlic, but I think it is fairly indicative that this guy is not a genius.  He had dyslexia people say.  About 1/2 my family has dyslexia.  If undiagnosed it can be a severe reading handicap, but for most there are ways to cope and compensate for dyslexia with little drop off.  In this day and age I doubt Gary was undiagnosed.   

I would also add that in about 10 plays we went through he missed two assignments badly at one of easiest positions scheme wise to play in all of football.  That to me is a bigger tell than any standardized test which someone may or may not care about.  

Also if you watch All or Nothing on Amazon he doesn't come off as a brilliant mind.  He seems immature mentally even for being 19 or 20.   People are on and on about his good grades at Michigan.   He was a general studies major and had tutors helping him with all his work.   I don't want to bash the kid (even though I just did I guess), maybe he is low key brilliant.   On everything but wonderlic he has done well, but it is sad that we just can't trust grades etc. anymore to have any real meaning.   

Still like I said, you don't have be genius to play DE or DL.  But that brings me to my next point.

4) Where are Packers playing him?  They are going to play him all over they say.   That seems like a terrible idea for someone with limited skill and perhaps limited intelligence.   Better that you practice one kick 10,000 times than 10,000 kicks - Bruce Lee.   But being a Bears fan, I hope they do this.

My feeling is Gary is an okay to good player in NFL who flashes some big plays, but never turns into a consistent dominant force.  

Only time will tell.  

 

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3 hours ago, dll2000 said:

Unproductive players in college are often unproductive players in NFL.  Not other way around.  That's just history.  Plenty of very productive players don't make it in NFL as well, but few unproductive players suddenly become very productive at next level.

I've read many articles that have found this to be true of pass rushers in particular.  It would appear that even in college you either have a knack for it or you don't.  It tough to coach into those who don't have that knack even with NFL coaching.

Floyd may be a good example of this.  He was not a dominant edge rusher at Georgia and has not shown he can be a dominant pass rusher in the NFL but as long as Mack is Floyd will bring consistent pressure and get some sacks when he rushes.

In a certain sense his versatility is actually a benefit since it's tougher to predict whether he'll rush, fall off in coverage, or spy a mobile QB and chase him down if he breaks out of the pocket.  He's not Mack because he's not the same player as Mack.

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