bosa vs Allen

[Fureys49ers]

2 minutes ago, Pandomonium said:

but what about a presence on the edge? 

while we would probably have a DT tandem to rival Donald/Suh  would be be able to adequately provide pressure off the edge? Outside of Dante Fowler, I don't really like any of the free agent edge players

 

Fowler is probably my least favorite edge out there. Did nothing in Jacksonville, goes to LA and benefits from having Donald and Suh get push up the middle and still has relative average numbers. I’ll pass, that’s just me though, could be completely wrong but I do think he has some character concerns if I’m not mistaken as well.

[Chrissooner49er]

Just say No! To QW. No more IDL in the 1st round!!!!!! Edge only and perhaps often.

[y2lamanaki]

1 hour ago, Chrissooner49er said:

Just say No! To QW. No more IDL in the 1st round!!!!!! Edge only and perhaps often.

I agree with this, regardless of how good QW appears to be. For one, that closes the door on Solomon Thomas which would be a big reset button push for the regime, especially when Thomas looked much better inside and should play there more often. But more importantly, the EDGE guys that are difficult to find are there for the taking this year. Don't overthink this. I'd love rooting on QW to succeed if he is the pick, but it would be a real letdown. 

[Fureys49ers]

35 minutes ago, y2lamanaki said:

I agree with this, regardless of how good QW appears to be. For one, that closes the door on Solomon Thomas which would be a big reset button push for the regime, especially when Thomas looked much better inside and should play there more often. But more importantly, the EDGE guys that are difficult to find are there for the taking this year. Don't overthink this. I'd love rooting on QW to succeed if he is the pick, but it would be a real letdown. 

Thomas plays big end though, QW would be NT in our scheme like he was at Bama. I do agree with the idea that the ideal edge guys are there for our taking though so go get them.

[Knowledge]

If we were running a 3-4 I would pick Allen.

Since we are not its easily Bosa

[y2lamanaki]

41 minutes ago, Fureys49ers said:

Thomas plays big end though, QW would be NT in our scheme like he was at Bama. I do agree with the idea that the ideal edge guys are there for our taking though so go get them.

We're not going to use the #3 overall pick as a run-only defender, especially not with $9M going to Armstead for just that reason. On pass downs, we would expect #2 overall Williams to be rushing inside with Buckner and two edge rushers. We know Solomon Thomas is not an edge rusher. So that is a problem, and he would have to go, or the team pays $9M for Armstead to play elsewhere. 

[Fureys49ers]

Armstead will more than likely be playing else where whether it be this year or next, unless he takes a Mike Person like contract next year. At 9 mil I’m not too concerned right now, or atleast not enough to miss out on potentially the biggest difference maker in the draft, with all of our cap space. I’d like to see what Solly does this year, from both the inside and outside with better talent around him before we start speaking in definitive statements, assurities or needing players who are still very young and developing “to go”. Does he look like an all league EDGE? Absolutely not, but neither did Michael Bennett, Dee Ford, Cameron Wake and many other DEs early in their career. I’m not sure why Armstead is brought up as often as he is to dispute drafting QW, more than likely he will be gone next year if not traded this offseason for little return or to sweeten the pot in a deal. His run stuffing “prowess” and frequent trips to the trainers will certainly be missed but there’s not a whole lot to get to sad about not having around.

[y2lamanaki]

12 minutes ago, Fureys49ers said:

Armstead will more than likely be playing else where whether it be this year or next, unless he takes a Mike Person like contract next year. At 9 mil I’m not too concerned right now, or atleast not enough to miss out on potentially the biggest difference maker in the draft, with all of our cap space. I’d like to see what Solly does this year, from both the inside and outside with better talent around him before we start speaking in definitive statements, assurities or needing players who are still very young and developing “to go”. Does he look like an all league EDGE? Absolutely not, but neither did Michael Bennett, Dee Ford, Cameron Wake and many other DEs early in their career. I’m not sure why Armstead is brought up as often as he is to dispute drafting QW, more than likely he will be gone next year if not traded this offseason for little return or to sweeten the pot in a deal. His run stuffing “prowess” and frequent trips to the trainers will certainly be missed but there’s not a whole lot to get to sad about not having around.

Solomon Thomas never should have been on the edge to begin with. There is no reason to continue to make that mistake. However, he does look much better on the inside. If he's going to develop, it's only going to be there. But that can't happen with Williams on board. 

As for Armstead, that has been the popular refrain passed around in fan circles since 2017. But the regime has constantly stood by him and have already said he will be on the team in 2019.

[Fureys49ers]

22 minutes ago, y2lamanaki said:

Solomon Thomas never should have been on the edge to begin with. There is no reason to continue to make that mistake. However, he does look much better on the inside. If he's going to develop, it's only going to be there. But that can't happen with Williams on board. 

As for Armstead, that has been the popular refrain passed around in fan circles since 2017. But the regime has constantly stood by him and have already said he will be on the team in 2019.

I’m fairly certain we gave a guy a brand new contract and said he was going to be on the team as well and then traded him away just last year when a better option became available.

All these definitive statements are rather limiting and narrow sighted but I can see you have your stance so no need to discuss further. Only thinking that two DL can develop on a team at a time seems illogical and depth, and/or fresh players never hurt anyone especially at such a disruptive position but we are all allowed our opinions. 

At the end of all this I would like to remind people I prefer Bosa and Allen at pick 2.

[oldman9er]

10 minutes ago, y2lamanaki said:

Solomon Thomas never should have been on the edge to begin with. There is no reason to continue to make that mistake. However, he does look much better on the inside. If he's going to develop, it's only going to be there. But that can't happen with Williams on board. 

Even without adding QW, the impact of Thomas inside would be limited to Nickel D, right? I can't imagine him being an effective 1 tech in base... so other than changing base scheme or him rotating to keep Buck fresh.. this seems like it will never make the selection justifiable.  

Maybe Thomas can grow into the big End 5t role? Maybe we don't wait and trade him or AA, but at this point, I don't see a willing buyer for AA's contract.

 

[John232]

I actually think the 3-4 caveat would still matter to a team like the Cardinals if they stayed in a 3-4.Not just because of Allen V Bosa, but because QW would be a god tier 5 tech full time and would be incredible to have in that 3-4 end role. But if you were soley looking for a stand up edge, then Bosa is probably behind Burns and Allen in that regard. 

 

But it's not particularly close for me. Bosa is substantially better as an edge right now and Burns may also be better than Allen and just less talked about. I would also add that if your a team looking to add a more well rounded DE as oppose to a pure upside edge rusher...Ferrell may be your EDGE #2 because he's probably the best run defender of all the edges, including Bosa. (I'd still lean Bosa, but Ferrell is absolutely great in this area).  

 

But..the Cards are still a 4-3..and it's a null point at this juncture. 

[y2lamanaki]

1 hour ago, oldman9er said:

Even without adding QW, the impact of Thomas inside would be limited to Nickel D, right? I can't imagine him being an effective 1 tech in base... so other than changing base scheme or him rotating to keep Buck fresh.. this seems like it will never make the selection justifiable.  

Maybe Thomas can grow into the big End 5t role? Maybe we don't wait and trade him or AA, but at this point, I don't see a willing buyer for AA's contract.

 

Well yeah...Thomas is already limited. Drafting Williams makes him a full backup. But I would imagine his future in base is at Armstead's spot. 

[y2lamanaki]

1 hour ago, Fureys49ers said:

I’m fairly certain we gave a guy a brand new contract and said he was going to be on the team as well and then traded him away just last year when a better option became available.

I'm guessing you're talking about Kerley? If not, genuinely can't recall anyone else who might fit. But Kerley was re-signed in 2017 after being our leading receiver in 2016 because there was nobody else. Shanahan himself recently said there were no receivers on the roster at the time, which made Goodwin a starter by default and gave Bourne playing time where he wouldn't have on other rosters. But Kerley was re-signed before free agency when the cupboard was bare, before Garcon, Robinson, or Goodwin. Before Taylor in the draft. Before Bourne or Bolden as UDFAs. And they ultimately went with all of their guys in 2017 and Kerley was cut. That's quite a bit different than keeping a former first round pick around for multiple seasons, confirming that they like him a lot, and confirming that they will guarantee him $9M to stick around a third year. 

[Fureys49ers]

17 minutes ago, y2lamanaki said:

I'm guessing you're talking about Kerley? If not, genuinely can't recall anyone else who might fit. But Kerley was re-signed in 2017 after being our leading receiver in 2016 because there was nobody else. Shanahan himself recently said there were no receivers on the roster at the time, which made Goodwin a starter by default and gave Bourne playing time where he wouldn't have on other rosters. But Kerley was re-signed before free agency when the cupboard was bare, before Garcon, Robinson, or Goodwin. Before Taylor in the draft. Before Bourne or Bolden as UDFAs. And they ultimately went with all of their guys in 2017 and Kerley was cut. That's quite a bit different than keeping a former first round pick around for multiple seasons, confirming that they like him a lot, and confirming that they will guarantee him $9M to stick around a third year. 

Kerley and there as a back up IOL who I think we unloaded as soon as Richburg was signed, Kilgore or Devey or something. So that would be twice, and regardless of where former regimes drafted the player or how much that player was needed or important the year prior they were still sent off after being told something different because improvements were made at their position which is the point I’m making. Armstead is not keeping me from adding QW because of his 5th year option and I said he was a good player for us when we were 4-12 team. We are not overflowing and brimming with DL talent by any means, edge or interior. An improved DT depth chart doesn’t just benefit our IDL play, I’m not sure why that gets lost in all the shuffle of debate.

[y2lamanaki]

22 minutes ago, Fureys49ers said:

Kerley and there as a back up IOL who I think we unloaded as soon as Richburg was signed, Kilgore or Devey or something. So that would be twice, and regardless of where former regimes drafted the player or how much that player was needed or important the year prior they were still sent off after being told something different because improvements were made at their position which is the point I’m making. Armstead is not keeping me from adding QW because of his 5th year option and I said he was a good player for us when we were 4-12 team. We are not overflowing and brimming with DL talent by any means, edge or interior. An improved DT depth chart doesn’t just benefit our IDL play, I’m not sure why that gets lost in all the shuffle of debate.

You're right. I totally forgot about Kilgore. I still think it's quite a bit different if a scenario. They couldn't all but guarantee Richburg would come in. They can basically do that with Williams. But you're right - there is precedent.