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Devin White deserved hype ?

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13 hours ago, Counselor said:

Chart it then and back up your claim because it’s a fallacy. @Jlash is right. There is so much over thinking on White going on because of the fatigue. 

Explain to me how you know that I have "prospect fatigue"?

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Posted (edited)
16 hours ago, vegas492 said:

Never said anything about negative plays.  Did say that for every SportsCenter highlight he'd have, he'd have 10 times in the game where he took steps that led to longer plays.  Not negative plays, longer plays.  

Wouldn’t giving up a “longer plays” on defense be the same as committing “negative plays”?

Edited by Yin-Yang

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6 hours ago, Yin-Yang said:

Wouldn’t giving up a “longer plays” on defense be the same as committing “negative plays”?

Even if he won't call them 'negative plays', he makes 10 mistakes to every 1 big play he has. Doesn't even sound draftable to me.

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7 hours ago, indifference said:

Smith is much much much better in coverage. Its not even close in that aspect. All LSU did was use bracket coverage for opposing teams running backs. And in today’s passing league, I value that more than a run stuffing downhill backer. Give me Smith who can cover like a safety with his range and still make plays in pursuit against the run. Granted he needs a good DL but that’s also because he is what 10-15 pounds lighter? not expecting backers that arent 240-250 to be shedding at the POA and if they are then the defense is in trouble anyway.

I would not call Smith some amazing coverage linebacker or something, he is not like Alec Ogletree former Georgia backer who literally played safety and has great range in coverage.  Smith is ok in coverage but I would not say he is great at it just like White is not great at it.  Oh and by the way White had 9 passed deflected and a INT in college, Smith had 3 so someone was around the ball and acting on the football in coverage more than Smith statistically.  Sure at times White looks lost in coverage but was asked to do it more than Smith who played in a more typical 3/4 defense at Georgia than White who was in more of a standard 4/3.  That speed White showed helps as well, something he apparently has more of than Smith, Smith is better laterally and in terms of quickness possibly but not explosiveness and power.  

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49 minutes ago, Ozzy said:

I would not call Smith some amazing coverage linebacker or something, he is not like Alec Ogletree former Georgia backer who literally played safety and has great range in coverage.  Smith is ok in coverage but I would not say he is great at it just like White is not great at it.  Oh and by the way White had 9 passed deflected and a INT in college, Smith had 3 so someone was around the ball and acting on the football in coverage more than Smith statistically.  Sure at times White looks lost in coverage but was asked to do it more than Smith who played in a more typical 3/4 defense at Georgia than White who was in more of a standard 4/3.  That speed White showed helps as well, something he apparently has more of than Smith, Smith is better laterally and in terms of quickness possibly but not explosiveness and power.  

“Statistically” that doesnt prove what his coverage skills are at ALL. White was asked to blitz and attack mostly so I tend to believe those pd’s all came within the LOS. Someone did not watch the Lousiana Tech or A&M game this year where White was flat out awful.  Not just in coverage but many negative plays  where he is slow to react and loses his integrity in run fits. LSU blitzes White often. Him and Bush were used the same way. LSU brackets RBs in Man coverage and while Michigan green dogs a lot. 

And Smith is a great coverage LB. I really do not need to expound on that. 

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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, indifference said:

“Statistically” that doesnt prove what his coverage skills are at ALL. White was asked to blitz and attack mostly so I tend to believe those pd’s all came within the LOS. Someone did not watch the Lousiana Tech or A&M game this year where White was flat out awful.  Not just in coverage but many negative plays  where he is slow to react and loses his integrity in run fits. LSU blitzes White often. Him and Bush were used the same way. LSU brackets RBs in Man coverage and while Michigan green dogs a lot. 

And Smith is a great coverage LB. I really do not need to expound on that. 

I'm halfway through LATech and I've got him with 3 passes defensed (one that led to an INT), at least one stop at the LOS, 2 QB pressures, and a TD. I'll keep watching.

Ended with a couple more pressures and a sack. Played most of the second half in coverage.

Edited by deathstar

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8 hours ago, deathstar said:

I'm halfway through LATech and I've got him with 3 passes defensed (one that led to an INT), at least one stop at the LOS, 2 QB pressures, and a TD. I'll keep watching.

Ended with a couple more pressures and a sack. Played most of the second half in coverage.

Flat out awful

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16 hours ago, Jlash said:

Even if he won't call them 'negative plays', he makes 10 mistakes to every 1 big play he has. Doesn't even sound draftable to me.

He covers those mistakes with absurd athleticism. You can’t out athlete people in the NFL, if you are prone to making mistakes reading offenses or understand play fakes or over committing on a cutback, the athletes in the NFL will make you pay all day every day. It’s why these Uber athlete backers who don’t understand how to play the position rarely pan out. The only reason, I feel, the jury is still out in White is that he only started playing the position a few years ago. 

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Posted (edited)
16 hours ago, Ozzy said:

he is not like Alec Ogletree former Georgia backer who literally played safety and has great range 

Lol this is why in the NFL Ogletree can’t cover the turf, meanwhile Smith is asked to cover TE’s and RB’s and does it well. 

Edited by YogiBiz

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2 hours ago, YogiBiz said:

It’s why these Uber athlete backers who don’t understand how to play the position rarely pan out

And now he's not just the guy who makes mistakes at a 10/1 ratio, he's just an athlete who doesn't know how to play the position.

Sounds undraftable to me.

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Posted (edited)
14 hours ago, deathstar said:

I'm halfway through LATech and I've got him with 3 passes defensed (one that led to an INT), at least one stop at the LOS, 2 QB pressures, and a TD. I'll keep watching.

Ended with a couple more pressures and a sack. Played most of the second half in coverage.

Time stamps next time please (the games are on youtube)

Breakdown from the first qtr alone

5:35 – Quarters vs Trips. If the Inside Receiver goes vert, his job here is to match-up/stay in-phase underneath the reciever. If its a Cross he disrupts and sinks. Its a fake Bubble Screen to the motion HB, the WR fakes to block for a second, creates a false step from White and then he goes to the vert (Drive route). White tries to jam him after he false steps, loses him vertically and then doesn’t attempt to stay in-phase with him and barely sinks. 

He’s wide open because White turns him loose. 

This is a -2.

6:02 – Man vs fake Trips Bubble Screen (boot other way) where White is Man on Inside WR. If this was an actual Bubble Screen, White would have been slow to diagnose and would have been picked off by the Slot (or at least disrupted to the ball) and it would have been a big gain). 

In terms of primary coverage assignment, this would be a loss; -1

6:40 – Green Dog (RB stays in and its Bubble Screen to Trips). NA.

20:49 – (probably) Quarters vs Bubble Screen from Twins. NA.

21:24 – Quarters vs Twins. Safeties and boundary CBs are match-up on all 4 players. White’s job is to sink to contract window and drive on any deep in-cuts on the Twins side to his left and drive on any Shallow Crosses. 

He sort of drifts over there while looking at the QB, not getting depth to contract a window for the vert from the Slot, then he continues to drift that way as he is just watching the QBs eyes (seemingly oblivious to the spatial relationships around him) and runs over top of the in-cutting boundary WR who is running a shallow Dig (that he has to drive on), thereby taking himself out of position to make a play on the in-cut throw (on both the actual catch point and afterward if the receiver catches the ball).

This is really poor. -2

22:00 – Quarters vs Trips Tunnel Screen. He’s Will here so he is basically sink > Curl/Flat to that side (its basically C2Z rules that side). This is a decent job in his backpedal to landmark and effort, but its over immediately because its a Tunnel Screen.

But I’ll give him an “as expected” for the effort. 0

22:43 – Quarters vs Empty (Trips away from White). People defend this differently. Sometimes the Will straight matches up with the Slot. However, they’re Stacked on the Twins Side and they both run verts so its clear the Safety and CB are matching up. Here, the Will (White) is sinking to contract windows over top and driving on any in-cuts. If one of those two on the Twins side would have run an in-cut, he would have matched up. 

There is no real action here, but he does a pretty solid job. 0

32:58 – Quarters vs Trips (White is open side so he’s Will). C2Z rules that side and boundary CB initially matches up while White’s job is to sink to Curl/Flat over there and help contract in-cut window over top and drive on Shallow Dig/Cross. 

He takes a couple of false steps and is late in his responsibility, allowing a completely open window for the Slant his side (this should look familiar to us…this is what happened to our Quarters coverages the last few years! Easy Slants!). 

This is very poor and should have led to a chunk play. -2

 

second qtr:

55:08 – Quarters Empty (RB motion to Trips away from White). White is Twins side. C2Z Matchup combo rules over there. His job is to sink Seem/Hook to contract in-cut window over top of him and then match-up/drive on in-cut under him. They run a Levels concept over there. He sinks right into the hip pocket of the in-cut over him and then drives on the in-cut under him. Good drop, awareness, anticipation, and timing, gets a PBU which knocks the ball up in the air and creates a (pick) turnover.

This is what I’m talking about. This is ABSOLUTELY PERFECT. +2

1:00:19 – Quarters vs Double Twins. LSU only brings 3 and White has to be playing some kind of Robber/Spy here as he’s the extra man. He drops to a landmark of the sticks (3rd and 8), while being cognizant of a potential slot in-cut to his right, and then drives when the HB Hitches up and as the QB is being flushed.

This looks like a good job to me. +1

1:01:03 – Quarters vs Double Twins RPO and Double Dig/Slant (poor routes) to White’s left. He comes down hard for the ZRO look, the QB reads off of this and throws the inside Dig/Slant (its too flat of a route but not flat enough to be a Dig). Even though its a poor route, White is still able to be able to explode back into his coverage responsibility of drop into hip of in-cut and then drive on underneath in-cut. He makes the PBU. 

Great stuff here. +2

1:03:49 – Quarters vs Quads Open Bubble Screen – NA.

1:14:06 – Quarters vs Double Twins Bubble Screen – NA.

1:18:59 – Quarters vs Double Twins. He should be sinking up the seam his side to contract the window of a vert/Dig to that Slot and then driving on an in-cut to match-up with any Shallow Dig/Cross under him. 

He doesn’t get depth to landmark. He sort of tries to read the QB and takes some false steps and just ends up covering grass. The Slot goes Out, so he doesn’t have to worry about depth, but he’s eyeing the QB so I don’t see how he saw that. But I’ll be charitable and give him a wash here. 0

1:20:45 – Quarters vs Double Twins. He’s effectively Will here and he should be working hard to his left at the snap and getting depth to a landmark near that Seam over there that would be under a Dig, contracting that window and still being able to drive on and match-up with a Shallow Cross/Dig under him.

He barely works left at all (certainly not with any urgency) and he doesn’t get much depth at all. They’re running a Levels concept (Dig over him from his Left and Cross under him to draw him up). He sits in no-mans land between the two, covering grass and trying to read the eyes of the QB. 

It doesn’t end up costing them due to the QB flushing early from the pocket, but if he would have thrown the Dig behind White with anticipation, the window was there.

-1

1:22:36 – Quarters vs Trips Left, Tailback Screen. This is White’s play. He is waaaaaaaaaay late diagnosing it. He then compounds the late diagnosis error by missing a tackle and giving up 12 yards RAC due to his missed tackle to put them in FG range.

 

third qtr:

1:27:41 – Cover 3 Zone (first time) vs Double Twins. As ILB, his job here is to drop to his left get depth to landmark and play a mid/Hook Zone near that seam to contract the window to in-cuts and hook-ups (Posts and Digs from his Doubles side primarily) and then drive on any horizontal routes under him. 

He fails to get depth and to drop left toward that seam and instead just floats and tries to read the QB’s eyes and quickly jumps the Crossing route in front of him. The Slot on his side was running a Dig and would have been wide open due to White’s poor drop (but he was moved off of his spot by the rush). 

This happens a lot with them when he drops into coverage. The rush moves the QB off of the spot before his poor Zone drop/awareness can be exploited.

-1

1:29:44 – Quarters vs Trips and White is open side LB so its basically C2Z Quarters match-up rules over there. If that single WR over there runs a shallow in-cut then he drives on it, otherwise he is the Flat defender of there. 

The QB is flushed from the pocket quickly and he picks up the Slot Crossing route from the Trips that is coming to his flat. 

As expected. 0

1:30:36 Its a ZRO fake and Smoke Screen to Stacked Twins so its impossible to tell the coverage. Regardless whether its Quarters or Man (or whatever), his job is to quickly read his triangle, diagnose that its not a run and pursue hard from inside out. 

He misreads the play as an actual Inside Zone and focuses solely on stacking the 2nd level climbing OL (this is window dressing), never getting out in pursuit.

-1

1:31:12 EXACT SAME PLAY AGAIN, SAME FORMATION. This time (as you would hope), White recognizes it, evades the 2nd level climbing OL as he pursues to the sideline.

+1

1:33:50 Man vs Shotgun Pistol Strong I and Stacked Twins w/ In-Line TE same side (4th and G from 1.5yard line). White is Man on the RB and they’re running a fake Zone left to get a throw to the flat right off a rub (it works). All White is doing is running with the RB on the fake (who never runs a pattern). This is basically an NA.

1:40:271 Quarters vs Double Stacked Twins and an RPO. One of the receivers ran a wrong route here (clearly). White does a good job of reading his triangle and working in pursuit of the throw-side.

+1

1:41:04 Quarters Robber (they only bring 3, White is Robber) vs Double Twins. He does a good job of getting depth to landmark (where Post/Digs would be) and is just reading the QB (where he should be more cognizant of any threats to him…I don’t even see him taking a peak). This is an easy coverage responsibility as it doesn’t require specific responsibility, but he does as expected (no threats in his area)

1:41:55 Quarters vs Empty. They’re matched up (Safety and CB) on the Twins side where White is and they both run verts, so White’s job is to get depth to landmark to contract window on in-cuts and drive on/match-up with any in-cuts that crosses the face of the ILB next to him.

He fails to get depth, but he does drive on the WR running a Crossing route that crosses the face of the ILB adjacent to him who passes him off to White. His job is to now match-up with this player. This is his man. The QB is moved off the spot due to (again) a huge rush by the LSU front and climbs toward the line of scrimmage. The man that White is supposed to match up on turns upfield due to their scramble rules. White completely turns him lose rather than matching up with him.

Big completion on 3rd and 10 for a 1st down. -2

1:42:32 Quarters vs Double Twins. Again, depth to land-mark, contract window to in-cut over him, drive on any in-cut unders. The QB is moved off the spot so quickly that he doesn’t have much time to get depth. He climbs and White begins to drive on an under and pursue the QB who is about to break the LoS.

As expected rather than +1 because he’s taking several false steps forward which hinder his primary coverage responsibility (typically pushing forward at the LoS despite his responsibility for Zone drops..even without any indication of run from his triangle read…this is another reason why he struggles with depth…he’s cheating in his run support pre-read). 0

1:43:15 Quarters vs Trips where White is the Open LB. They run a RB Screen his side. This time his drop is good…but he is so slow and late in reading his triangle for the Screen that he is waaaaaaaaaaay out of position and waaaaaaaay late in diagnosing and getting downhill. Because of this, his angle is easily disrupted by a WR and a play that may have been a 5-6 yard gain (or less if he read > reacted > and made the play) turns into a 16 yard completion.

Watching this from the endzone view, it was obvious it was going to be a Screen from the OL activity about a full second and change before White actually got out of his dropped, planted, and drove on the play. This is his play. -2

1:44:40 Quarters vs Double Twins. Again, depth > contract window over > drive on under. Again the QB is moved off the spot extremely quickly and is forced to climb. White’s depth isn’t great here and he has nothing under to drive on/match-up with. When QB climbs toward LoS he pursues.

Good enough for an as expected. 0

1:45:47 Quarters vs Trips and he’s MLB. Great job getting appropriate depth to landmark to his left (where he needs to be to support trips side and contract window of any over route). He also takes a peak at the route combos to make sure he’s where he needs to be (good again). He then drives on an under (hook to seam his side). He wouldn’t have been in position for a PBU (WR drops the ball), but he would have been in position for a sure tackle after the catch.

Good stuff. This is what I want to see on every_single_play. +1

1:46:31 Quarters vs Trips Bubble Screen. If you watch White closely, on almost every play he is late in his read. As soon as the QB begins to turn his shoulders and post to throw this Bubble, he needs to be in_action…pursuing explosively to that side. Just like on this play, he’s actually not moving until the ball is out of the hand. He has to diagnose this and be downhill the moment the QB makes that move.

As it is, he’s late and out of position for support. You can have all of the athleticism in the world, but you can’t make up for being .33 to .5 seconds late in processing speed with your athletcism. That may seem like nothing, but that is a HUGE lag in football. -1

1:47:15 Man vs Trips left and RB Motion to Twins Right. He has RB on the Flat route. Again, the QB is pressured quickly and has to get the ball out. White is a little late/slow getting out to the flat, but good enough for as expected.

0

1:54:51 Cover 3 Zone (2nd time) vs Double Twins. His Seam/Hook Zone on the left side. He has to get depth to prevent a seam throw his side and squeeze the window for any over routes. There is a momentary Sprint left action and the QB then sets deep. For whatever reason, but ILBs are taking false steps forward on this (they’re WAAAAAAY UP at this point and its a 10 yard line to gain…I have no idea why they would be doing that) like they’re reading their triangle incorrectly or guessing run first and trying to get downhill. There is an over route between the two ILBs and neither of them have anywhere nearing appropriate depth to contract a window to that throw. The QB goes elsewhere, but that throw was wide open.

This just really can’t happen. -2

 

Note: there are more negative plays in this game than positive but he played a great game according to you.

How?

Edited by indifference

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Posted (edited)
59 minutes ago, Jlash said:

And now he's not just the guy who makes mistakes at a 10/1 ratio, he's just an athlete who doesn't know how to play the position.

Sounds undraftable to me.

I never said he made those mistakes at that rate, and I agree the other poster embellished on the 10:1 mistake ratio to get his point across. It doesn’t mean @indifference didn’t make solid points, and every thing else he has said about White is not true. 

And you really need to stop acting so ridiculous when someone is trying to have a discussion with you bro.

All I meant (can’t believe I have to break it down for you) That he doesn’t have the instincts of a starting linebacker (or you know understanding how to play the position). He’s a heat seeking missile and when pointed in the right direction, he will make a splashy play. I just don’t feel comfortable having a middle linebacker who doesn’t know how to read things like cutbacks, play action passes, or plain out read an offense. 

Also next time you would like to @me make sure you quote my whole post and not cherry pick my argument to make yours sound more reasonable. We aren’t in grade school  

 

Edited by YogiBiz

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Posted (edited)
40 minutes ago, YogiBiz said:

Also next time you would like to @me make sure you quote my whole post and not cherry pick my argument to make yours sound more reasonable. We aren’t in grade school

It's the only part of your post I found worth referring to. So that's what I'll quote. 

Edit: like when you said Edelman had "notoriously good hands" coming out of college despite catching 1 pass in your analysis, and I contested that point so I quoted just that? That's just easier than quoting all of your stuff.

Edited by Jlash

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, indifference said:

 

21:24 – Quarters vs Twins. Safeties and boundary CBs are match-up on all 4 players. White’s job is to sink to contract window and drive on any deep in-cuts on the Twins side to his left and drive on any Shallow Crosses. 

He sort of drifts over there while looking at the QB, not getting depth to contract a window for the vert from the Slot, then he continues to drift that way as he is just watching the QBs eyes (seemingly oblivious to the spatial relationships around him) and runs over top of the in-cutting boundary WR who is running a shallow Dig (that he has to drive on), thereby taking himself out of position to make a play on the in-cut throw (on both the actual catch point and afterward if the receiver catches the ball).

This is really poor. -2

32:58 – Quarters vs Trips (White is open side so he’s Will). C2Z rules that side and boundary CB initially matches up while White’s job is to sink to Curl/Flat over there and help contract in-cut window over top and drive on Shallow Dig/Cross. 

He takes a couple of false steps and is late in his responsibility, allowing a completely open window for the Slant his side (this should look familiar to us…this is what happened to our Quarters coverages the last few years! Easy Slants!). 

This is very poor and should have led to a chunk play. -2

1:20:45 – Quarters vs Double Twins. He’s effectively Will here and he should be working hard to his left at the snap and getting depth to a landmark near that Seam over there that would be under a Dig, contracting that window and still being able to drive on and match-up with a Shallow Cross/Dig under him.

He barely works left at all (certainly not with any urgency) and he doesn’t get much depth at all. They’re running a Levels concept (Dig over him from his Left and Cross under him to draw him up). He sits in no-mans land between the two, covering grass and trying to read the eyes of the QB. 

It doesn’t end up costing them due to the QB flushing early from the pocket, but if he would have thrown the Dig behind White with anticipation, the window was there.

-1

third qtr:

1:27:41 – Cover 3 Zone (first time) vs Double Twins. As ILB, his job here is to drop to his left get depth to landmark and play a mid/Hook Zone near that seam to contract the window to in-cuts and hook-ups (Posts and Digs from his Doubles side primarily) and then drive on any horizontal routes under him. 

He fails to get depth and to drop left toward that seam and instead just floats and tries to read the QB’s eyes and quickly jumps the Crossing route in front of him. The Slot on his side was running a Dig and would have been wide open due to White’s poor drop (but he was moved off of his spot by the rush). 

This happens a lot with them when he drops into coverage. The rush moves the QB off of the spot before his poor Zone drop/awareness can be exploited.

-1

 

1:42:32 Quarters vs Double Twins. Again, depth to land-mark, contract window to in-cut over him, drive on any in-cut unders. The QB is moved off the spot so quickly that he doesn’t have much time to get depth. He climbs and White begins to drive on an under and pursue the QB who is about to break the LoS.

As expected rather than +1 because he’s taking several false steps forward which hinder his primary coverage responsibility (typically pushing forward at the LoS despite his responsibility for Zone drops..even without any indication of run from his triangle read…this is another reason why he struggles with depth…he’s cheating in his run support pre-read). 0

1:45:47 Quarters vs Trips and he’s MLB. Great job getting appropriate depth to landmark to his left (where he needs to be to support trips side and contract window of any over route). He also takes a peak at the route combos to make sure he’s where he needs to be (good again). He then drives on an under (hook to seam his side). He wouldn’t have been in position for a PBU (WR drops the ball), but he would have been in position for a sure tackle after the catch.

Good stuff. This is what I want to see on every_single_play. +1

1:46:31 Quarters vs Trips Bubble Screen. If you watch White closely, on almost every play he is late in his read. As soon as the QB begins to turn his shoulders and post to throw this Bubble, he needs to be in_action…pursuing explosively to that side. Just like on this play, he’s actually not moving until the ball is out of the hand. He has to diagnose this and be downhill the moment the QB makes that move.

As it is, he’s late and out of position for support. You can have all of the athleticism in the world, but you can’t make up for being .33 to .5 seconds late in processing speed with your athletcism. That may seem like nothing, but that is a HUGE lag in football. -1

1:54:51 Cover 3 Zone (2nd time) vs Double Twins. His Seam/Hook Zone on the left side. He has to get depth to prevent a seam throw his side and squeeze the window for any over routes. There is a momentary Sprint left action and the QB then sets deep. For whatever reason, but ILBs are taking false steps forward on this (they’re WAAAAAAY UP at this point and its a 10 yard line to gain…I have no idea why they would be doing that) like they’re reading their triangle incorrectly or guessing run first and trying to get downhill. There is an over route between the two ILBs and neither of them have anywhere nearing appropriate depth to contract a window to that throw. The QB goes elsewhere, but that throw was wide open.

This just really can’t happen. -2

 

Note: there are more negative plays in this game than positive but he played a great game according to you.

How?

You did some really solid work here. I hope you just copied and pasted from whatever report you had done previously. My only question for you is: how do you know what his responsibilities are and what he's coached to do? How do you choose how many points to assign per play? 

Above are the ones I just don't understand how you would know what he's supposed to do or if he was just doing what he was coached to do.

Edited by deathstar

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5 hours ago, deathstar said:

My only question for you is: how do you know what his responsibilities are

I second that question.

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