turtle28 Posted March 18, 2019 Share Posted March 18, 2019 On 3/16/2019 at 9:37 AM, lavar703 said: If Cam Sims shows out during the off-season and then again during the preseason I'm willing to bet Doctson is dumped off for a late round pick. I can't imagine them wasting much more time with him. They may actually have something with Cam Sims and it took pure dumb luck to come up with it. I can’t see it happening, why not just keep both and who ever is playing better, that’s who we go with? I think we can’t lose the fact that at this point Cam Sims is Marko Mitchell or Darnarian McCants, or really he hasn’t even shown as much as those two did in their careers. Cam hasn’t even faced NFL starting caliber corners in the league yet. Doctson has been inconsistent yes, at times he’s disappointed & disappeared and he’s dropped passes he should’ve caught but he’s also made some spectacular receptions too against NFL starting corners. Doctson has talent, he needs to improve his route running, concentration - especially across the middle - and his consistency. I don’t actually think Doctson is that far off from being a good starting WR, he’s just not there yet. Cam Sims is an entire enigma. This seems like a case of people liking more of what they don’t know aka potential from 1 preseason vs back up players - Cam Sims - more than what they do know about a Doctson and what he’s shown us or frankly hasn’t shown us since he was drafted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turtle28 Posted March 18, 2019 Share Posted March 18, 2019 On 3/16/2019 at 10:48 AM, Skins212689 said: Cool and if they just let him go, I'd look forward to see what he would do with a QB like Rodgers, Brady, Brees, Mayfield, Allen, Mariota, Winston, ect guys willing to throw up 50/50 balls. Doctson IMO has shown flashes and just need a QB willing to give him opportunities. McCoy, Cousins, nor Smith really did that. Doctson’s chances to earn the trust of his former QBs: • 2016 as a rookie at home vs the Cowboys: two balls Cousins threw to him in the end zone and he dropped both of them. One of them went right threw his hands on what would’ve been a diving TD • 2017 Doctson’s catch rate was I believe 47%. Most of our other receivers were in the 60s & 70s, so he had chances to make a lot of receptions but he didn’t. • vs the Saints, dropped two 50/50 balls • vs the Cowboys dropped a 50/50 ball • vs the broncos dropped an easy pass that should’ve been a TD where he was wide open. • last year same thing vs the Cardinals where he had a drop, Colts where he had some drops. Other games too. He just has not to this point in career consistently gotten open and has not consistently made catches. https://www.numberfire.com/nfl/news/18544/can-josh-doctson-overcome-his-inefficiency One thing we can note is that Doctson’s inconsistency was perhaps his most defining trait. His 44.87 percent catch rate was dead last among the 54 wide receivers with at least 75 targets this year, with just a middling 24th-best Reception Success Rate (the percent of catches converted for positive NEP value). Doctson didn’t make plays often at all, but on average when he did, they were solid plays not just downfield bombs or highly-valuable touchdowns. When we look at Doctson’s Reception NEP per target (a measure of his average value per play), though, it becomes clear he had a season that was anything but stable. The table below shows his production in this metric, as well as his ranking among receivers who saw at least 75 targets. Doctson was in the bottom-10 of the league's high-volume receivers in average value on receptions. This metric does depend a certain amount on the value provided by the quarterback and offense as a whole, and losing talented former offensive coordinator Sean McVay dampened the Washington offense this year – 2016’s schedule-adjusted Passing NEP per play of 0.25 plummeted to 0.08 this year. Still, Doctson’s rate was well below the average Washington wide receiver this season, which came out to 0.62 Reception NEP per target. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skins212689 Posted March 18, 2019 Share Posted March 18, 2019 1 hour ago, turtle28 said: Doctson’s chances to earn the trust of his former QBs: • 2016 as a rookie at home vs the Cowboys: two balls Cousins threw to him in the end zone and he dropped both of them. One of them went right threw his hands on what would’ve been a diving TD • 2017 Doctson’s catch rate was I believe 47%. Most of our other receivers were in the 60s & 70s, so he had chances to make a lot of receptions but he didn’t. • vs the Saints, dropped two 50/50 balls • vs the Cowboys dropped a 50/50 ball • vs the broncos dropped an easy pass that should’ve been a TD where he was wide open. • last year same thing vs the Cardinals where he had a drop, Colts where he had some drops. Other games too. He just has not to this point in career consistently gotten open and has not consistently made catches. https://www.numberfire.com/nfl/news/18544/can-josh-doctson-overcome-his-inefficiency This says to me He has to show something this year to keep his spot next year! I'm not ready to give up on him yet because of the guys that he's had throwing him the ball, but info like this makes him look bad. I remember the Endzone drop, and put that on him being a Rookie. He's now entering his 4th season, no excuses for so many drops. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woz Posted March 18, 2019 Share Posted March 18, 2019 17 hours ago, turtle28 said: I can’t see it happening, why not just keep both and who ever is playing better, that’s who we go with? I think we can’t lose the fact that at this point Cam Sims is Marko Mitchell or Darnarian McCants, or really he hasn’t even shown as much as those two did in their careers. Cam hasn’t even faced NFL starting caliber corners in the league yet. Doctson has been inconsistent yes, at times he’s disappointed & disappeared and he’s dropped passes he should’ve caught but he’s also made some spectacular receptions too against NFL starting corners. Doctson has talent, he needs to improve his route running, concentration - especially across the middle - and his consistency. I don’t actually think Doctson is that far off from being a good starting WR, he’s just not there yet. Cam Sims is an entire enigma. This seems like a case of people liking more of what they don’t know aka potential from 1 preseason vs back up players - Cam Sims - more than what they do know about a Doctson and what he’s shown us or frankly hasn’t shown us since he was drafted. On one hand, you want to keep Doctson because Sims is an enigma ... 16 hours ago, turtle28 said: Doctson’s chances to earn the trust of his former QBs: • 2016 as a rookie at home vs the Cowboys: two balls Cousins threw to him in the end zone and he dropped both of them. One of them went right threw his hands on what would’ve been a diving TD • 2017 Doctson’s catch rate was I believe 47%. Most of our other receivers were in the 60s & 70s, so he had chances to make a lot of receptions but he didn’t. • vs the Saints, dropped two 50/50 balls • vs the Cowboys dropped a 50/50 ball • vs the broncos dropped an easy pass that should’ve been a TD where he was wide open. • last year same thing vs the Cardinals where he had a drop, Colts where he had some drops. Other games too. He just has not to this point in career consistently gotten open and has not consistently made catches. https://www.numberfire.com/nfl/news/18544/can-josh-doctson-overcome-his-inefficiency ... but on the other, you point out how Doctson is very unreliable as a receiver. *scratches his head* I'm not saying Cam Sims is going to be the next great WR, but I think we're coming up on the end of the line for Doctson. If that's case, why not give the rookie a chance?(*) I would assume they bypass Doctson's fifth year option unless they plan on trading him. (*) Tin-foil hat me: Trading Doctson also hurts Gruden's chance of winning, helping set him up as the fall guy for why this iteration of the team has failed and allowing Allen to keep his job. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
naptownskinsfan Posted March 18, 2019 Share Posted March 18, 2019 I don't think Doctson has proven enough at this juncture to exercise his fifth year option, just my opinion. Too many injuries and inconsistencies. Maybe he plays better with his back against the wall? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turtle28 Posted March 18, 2019 Share Posted March 18, 2019 20 hours ago, Skins212689 said: This says to me He has to show something this year to keep his spot next year! I'm not ready to give up on him yet because of the guys that he's had throwing him the ball, but info like this makes him look bad. I remember the Endzone drop, and put that on him being a Rookie. He's now entering his 4th season, no excuses for so many drops. I’m not saying give up on him, I’m trying to prove the point that no matter who was throwing him the football - Kirk or Alex - Doctson thus far in his career has failed to regularly get open and make routine - let alone - a lot of contested catches, and yes, he’s had opportunities. It’s entirely up to Doctson, if he doesn’t step up this year and have over 50 recs, 800 yards and 5 TDs, I can’t see him getting a second contract from the Redskins. I know it’s fun to be in love with athleticism and potential as a big play WR but when time and time again he fails to produce on the field, that’s a problem. Production and consistency is what matters and so far in his career Doctson has been the teams least consistent WR since he was drafted. Being less consistent than Ryan Grant in 2017 is a problem when Doctson was a 1st round pick. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turtle28 Posted March 18, 2019 Share Posted March 18, 2019 5 hours ago, Woz said: On one hand, you want to keep Doctson because Sims is an enigma ... ... but on the other, you point out how Doctson is very unreliable as a receiver. *scratches his head* I'm not saying Cam Sims is going to be the next great WR, but I think we're coming up on the end of the line for Doctson. If that's case, why not give the rookie a chance?(*) I would assume they bypass Doctson's fifth year option unless they plan on trading him. (*) Tin-foil hat me: Trading Doctson also hurts Gruden's chance of winning, helping set him up as the fall guy for why this iteration of the team has failed and allowing Allen to keep his job. You’re missing my point. You’re taking two separate posts and combining them into one and trying to make one point with two thoughts I had on two different players. 1. Cam Sims has proven absolutely nothing in the NFL and did next to nothing at Alabama mostly bc of injury - and was injured for the Redskins as a rookie - there’s no way any rational person can have a thought that someday he could be a #1 starter based off of one preseason where he played mostly against guys who didn’t make it on NFL rosters. 2. I was trying to prove to someone who wanted to blame former Redskins QBs - Kirk & Alex - for Doctson’s failures as a WR so far in the NFL more on them rather than him. IMO thinking that Keenum is going to all of a sudden make Doctson reach his potential as a WR just bc he’ll “give Doctson more chances/targets” seems very naive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skins212689 Posted March 18, 2019 Share Posted March 18, 2019 14 minutes ago, turtle28 said: I’m not saying give up on him, I’m trying to prove the point that no matter who was throwing him the football - Kirk or Alex - Doctson thus far in his career has failed to regularly get open and make routine - let alone - a lot of contested catches, and yes, he’s had opportunities. It’s entirely up to Doctson, if he doesn’t step up this year and have over 50 recs, 800 yards and 5 TDs, I can’t see him getting a second contract from the Redskins. I know it’s fun to be in love with athleticism and potential as a big play WR but when time and time again he fails to produce on the field, that’s a problem. Production and consistency is what matters and so far in his career Doctson has been the teams least consistent WR since he was drafted. Being less consistent than Ryan Grant in 2017 is a problem when Doctson was a 1st round pick. Getting total separation and catching the football consistently is his problem. What I think Keenum brings that Smith nor Cousins do as good well as him is throwing the ball up or throwing it deep. Doctson wasn't really known for his speed but more so the ability to catch 50/50 balls. I would like to see them showcase that more this year. A Keenum to Doctson play like Keenums play to Diggs would be nice to see. That would be the perfect type of scenario for these two at their best strengths. Doctson definitely has to take some blame, that's why It's a make or break type year for him IMO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turtle28 Posted March 19, 2019 Share Posted March 19, 2019 52 minutes ago, Skins212689 said: Getting total separation and catching the football consistently is his problem. What I think Keenum brings that Smith nor Cousins do as good well as him is throwing the ball up or throwing it deep. Doctson wasn't really known for his speed but more so the ability to catch 50/50 balls. I would like to see them showcase that more this year. A Keenum to Doctson play like Keenums play to Diggs would be nice to see. That would be the perfect type of scenario for these two at their best strengths. Doctson definitely has to take some blame, that's why It's a make or break type year for him IMO. Yes, and so far in his two seasons as a starter Doctson has failed to showcase an ability to consistently catch 50/50 balls. In fact, Doctson has replaced Rod Gardner as the Redskins new version of 50/50 bc he only catches his targets 50% of the time. Doctson has a hell of a lot to prove that he can be a reliable WR for any QB throwing him the ball. Doctson has failed to earn his QBs trust thus far in the NFL. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skins212689 Posted March 19, 2019 Share Posted March 19, 2019 4 minutes ago, turtle28 said: Yes, and so far in his two seasons as a starter Doctson has failed to showcase an ability to consistently catch 50/50 balls. In fact, Doctson has replaced Rod Gardner as the Redskins new version of 50/50 bc he only catches his targets 50% of the time. Doctson has a hell of a lot to prove that he can be a reliable WR for any QB throwing him the ball. Doctson has failed to earn his QBs trust thus far in the NFL. I just hope the situation works out best for the Skins and this doesn't become a wasted 1st round pick. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woz Posted March 19, 2019 Share Posted March 19, 2019 11 hours ago, turtle28 said: You’re missing my point. You’re taking two separate posts and combining them into one and trying to make one point with two thoughts I had on two different players. 1. Cam Sims has proven absolutely nothing in the NFL and did next to nothing at Alabama mostly bc of injury - and was injured for the Redskins as a rookie - there’s no way any rational person can have a thought that someday he could be a #1 starter based off of one preseason where he played mostly against guys who didn’t make it on NFL rosters. 2. I was trying to prove to someone who wanted to blame former Redskins QBs - Kirk & Alex - for Doctson’s failures as a WR so far in the NFL more on them rather than him. IMO thinking that Keenum is going to all of a sudden make Doctson reach his potential as a WR just bc he’ll “give Doctson more chances/targets” seems very naive. I see my problem. I quoted the entirety of both messages. Let me focus down a bit. On 3/17/2019 at 9:40 PM, turtle28 said: Doctson has talent, he needs to improve his route running, concentration - especially across the middle - and his consistency. I don’t actually think Doctson is that far off from being a good starting WR, he’s just not there yet. On 3/17/2019 at 9:58 PM, turtle28 said: Other games too. He just has not to this point in career consistently gotten open and has not consistently made catches. I guess my issue is when you point to a guy who has failed to consistently get open and consistently make catches for three years and then say he just needs to improve the consistency angle ... well, that's a lot of hope there. Unfortunately, the runway for Doctson is quickly coming to an end. I had liked the pick back in 2016, but it looks like Josh falls into the category of "yet another bust WR drafted by Washington." Could he turn it around this year? Sure. However, given that they are almost assuredly not going to pick up his 5th year option, the only good news there is possibly a 2021 compensatory pick as someone else rolls the dice on a receiver who had a great year in a contract season. Well, that or they spent big bucks to re-sign Doctson after he had a big year in a contract season. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woz Posted March 19, 2019 Share Posted March 19, 2019 10 hours ago, Skins212689 said: I just hope the situation works out best for the Skins and this doesn't become a wasted 1st round pick. Unfortunately, I think that ship has sailed already. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
naptownskinsfan Posted March 19, 2019 Share Posted March 19, 2019 47 minutes ago, Woz said: Unfortunately, I think that ship has sailed already. 47 minutes ago, Woz said: Unfortunately, I think that ship has sailed already. Even if he performs in a contract year I likely let him walk. Three years of inconsistency and injury isn’t enough to throw big money at him for one year, especially with the funny money thrown around this off season. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skins212689 Posted March 19, 2019 Share Posted March 19, 2019 I wouldn't throw big money his way, but if he were to produce whats wrong with possibly signing him to a one year deal? Or is this all about getting a pick back if he signs eleswhere? Quick just got a job, if he can get one Doctson can as well. Or is this Bruce being Bruce? I'm not saying I agree but I know the team needed depth at WR, why not bring a guy who knows the system?...same can possibly be said about Doctson next year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MKnight82 Posted March 19, 2019 Share Posted March 19, 2019 7 minutes ago, Skins212689 said: I wouldn't throw big money his way, but if he were to produce whats wrong with possibly signing him to a one year deal? Or is this all about getting a pick back if he signs eleswhere? Quick just got a job, if he can get one Doctson can as well. Or is this Bruce being Bruce? I'm not saying I agree but I know the team needed depth at WR, why not bring a guy who knows the system?...same can possibly be said about Doctson next year. I mean realistically we could have any system next year, Gruden is on the hot seat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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