turtle28 Posted March 15, 2019 Share Posted March 15, 2019 28 minutes ago, RSkinGM said: Sure hope they did due diligence on that shoulder repair . $84 mill for a guy with a worn out bum shoulder . The other guys who signed big deals previously had major injuries too. Earl Thomas in the past had to have shoulder surgery after dislocating his shoulder, he broke his leg in two of the last three years and Mathieu tore his ACL in 2015. Those seem like bigger injury issues than repairing a torn labrum. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turtle28 Posted March 15, 2019 Share Posted March 15, 2019 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woz Posted March 15, 2019 Share Posted March 15, 2019 So, the short version of the threaded Keim conversation is "if put in the right position, Collins (or any other player for that matter) can succeed, and that sometimes you just get beat no matter what." Deep insight there. I would be curious to see if anyone responded to Keim and asked him whether he thought the Washington defensive staff as currently constructed had a good track record of putting players in positions where they can succeed. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MKnight82 Posted March 15, 2019 Share Posted March 15, 2019 19 minutes ago, Woz said: So, the short version of the threaded Keim conversation is "if put in the right position, Collins (or any other player for that matter) can succeed, and that sometimes you just get beat no matter what." Deep insight there. I would be curious to see if anyone responded to Keim and asked him whether he thought the Washington defensive staff as currently constructed had a good track record of putting players in positions where they can succeed. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turtle28 Posted March 15, 2019 Share Posted March 15, 2019 (edited) 5 hours ago, Woz said: So, the short version of the threaded Keim conversation is "if put in the right position, Collins (or any other player for that matter) can succeed, and that sometimes you just get beat no matter what." Deep insight there. I would be curious to see if anyone responded to Keim and asked him whether he thought the Washington defensive staff as currently constructed had a good track record of putting players in positions where they can succeed. I’d like to know which players you think the defensive coaching staff didn't put in position to succeed the last few years. Maybe Zach Brown when they asked him to cover, who else? Defensive line certainly succeeded. • Kerrigan was as good as he always was. • Preston Smith was able to get a lot of qb pressures and hits, so he was getting near the QB, he just wasn't getting the QB to the ground as much as we’d like for sacks. • Mason Foster was usually in position to make plays, he just usually failed to make them. • Norman was in position to succeed, he just blew a few coverages. • Dunny was having a career/break out year before his shin injury and was playing better than Norman. • Moreau had his ups and downs at slot corner but it was his first year playing it and he showed some potential. • The defensive coaching staff helped develop Fuller into the top rated slot corner in 2017. • Despite Swearinger’s complaints on some defensive calls, he was having a career year so, the coaching staff must have done something right and had him mostly in position to succeed. Edited March 15, 2019 by turtle28 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
e16bball Posted March 15, 2019 Share Posted March 15, 2019 4 hours ago, Woz said: I would be curious to see if anyone responded to Keim and asked him whether he thought the Washington defensive staff as currently constructed had a good track record of putting players in positions where they can succeed Well, Ray Horton coached Sam Shade into a big FA contract, Troy Polamalu from his breakout second season into the HOF, and T.J. Ward in his breakout Pro Bowl year. I think he knows how to deploy a quality box safety. Manusky coached Dashon Goldson into an All-Pro, Eric Weddle in his breakout All-Pro year, Antoine Bethea in the middle of his prime, Mike Adams in a shocking late-career revival (to the tune of 2 Pro Bowls), and most recently a solid 1.5 seasons out of D.J. Swearinger. So he’s got a pretty good track record with combo safeties, especially. I think they’ll be able to “protect” Collins, to the extent that he needs protecting. I would still like to see them add some talent in front of him that could help, especially a pass-rusher and an ILB who can cover. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turtle28 Posted March 15, 2019 Share Posted March 15, 2019 12 minutes ago, e16bball said: Well, Ray Horton coached Sam Shade into a big FA contract, Troy Polamalu from his breakout second season into the HOF, and T.J. Ward in his breakout Pro Bowl year. I think he knows how to deploy a quality box safety. Manusky coached Dashon Goldson into an All-Pro, Eric Weddle in his breakout All-Pro year, Antoine Bethea in the middle of his prime, Mike Adams in a shocking late-career revival (to the tune of 2 Pro Bowls), and most recently a solid 1.5 seasons out of D.J. Swearinger. So he’s got a pretty good track record with combo safeties, especially. I think they’ll be able to “protect” Collins, to the extent that he needs protecting. I would still like to see them add some talent in front of him that could help, especially a pass-rusher and an ILB who can cover. Yes, coverage ILB is a major issue on 1st and second downs in particular. They need someone who can start and cover. Josh Harvey Clemons is a good dime/coverage LB but he's not good vs the run and isn't a starter, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
naptownskinsfan Posted March 16, 2019 Share Posted March 16, 2019 23 hours ago, turtle28 said: You can’t compare Archuleta and Collins. So, that’s that. Chancellor had a freak neck injury and that’s the only reason he’s not playing in the league right now. Chancellor was also older when he got his big money from the Seahawks than Collins is now. Collins is younger than Mathieu (27 in May) who’s only 5’9, 190 and has had multiple major injuries and Earl Thomas who is also coming off three seasons where he battled injuries, previously dislocating his shoulder and needing surgery and also including breaking his leg twice in the last three years. Seems to me, Matthieu is older, has torn his ACL & Thomas who is going to be 30 on top of their injury concerns would be more of a concern than Collins’s shoulder injury last year or that he may get injuried. Yes you can, they are box safeties. And box safeties don't age well. Throw Landry in there, too. Chancellor started appearing on the injury list quite frequently after being in the NFL for four seasons, and in 2015-17 only played in 11, 12 and 9 games. Box safeties take a ton of punishment. Runningbacks and offensive linemen are running into them at full speed almost every down. They are tackling players who are bigger than then, and being blocked by players who sometimes have 150 pounds on them. They work the trenches and take a lot of punishment, and it's why there is such a risk to signing those types of players to big money. Twelve years ago, Landry went as the #6 overall pick. When Collins was drafted, he went in the second round. You still need the box safety in today's NFL, it's not a position that is going away, but because of their short shelf life, the importance of spending a high draft pick on them isn't there anymore, and the need to spend big money isn't there either. Of course, we blew that out of the water for Collins. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turtle28 Posted March 18, 2019 Share Posted March 18, 2019 (edited) On 3/16/2019 at 11:05 AM, naptownskinsfan said: Yes you can, they are box safeties. And box safeties don't age well. Throw Landry in there, too. Chancellor started appearing on the injury list quite frequently after being in the NFL for four seasons, and in 2015-17 only played in 11, 12 and 9 games. Box safeties take a ton of punishment. Runningbacks and offensive linemen are running into them at full speed almost every down. They are tackling players who are bigger than then, and being blocked by players who sometimes have 150 pounds on them. They work the trenches and take a lot of punishment, and it's why there is such a risk to signing those types of players to big money. Twelve years ago, Landry went as the #6 overall pick. When Collins was drafted, he went in the second round. You still need the box safety in today's NFL, it's not a position that is going away, but because of their short shelf life, the importance of spending a high draft pick on them isn't there anymore, and the need to spend big money isn't there either. Of course, we blew that out of the water for Collins. I’m sorry, but this isn’t true. Historical, here are SS’s who had long careers: Darren Woodson, Troy Polumalu, John Lynch, Bernard Pollard, Rodney Harrison, Dennis Smith, Leroy Butler, Carnell Lake, Joey Browner, Charlie Waters, D*ckAnderson and Donnie Shell, and there’s probably more I’m forgetting. As far as Chancellor goes, he’d still be playing if he hadn’t injured his neck, that was a freak injury. Let’s not forget that free safeties like Earl Thomas have dislocated a shoulder and had to have surgery and he broke his leg twice, Eric Berry missed seasons with injuries like torn Achilles and his heel injury last year where he lost most of the year, Tyran Matthieu gets hurt a lot. FSs get hurt too and have missed most or all of seasons. Edited March 18, 2019 by turtle28 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skins212689 Posted March 18, 2019 Share Posted March 18, 2019 It's football players are gonna get hurt. The team just lost Smith to a injury and still have to pay him. So why are people worried about Collins money so much? It's not as if he doesn't has the assets to be a great addition to the team. He has made the top 100 player list , been a All Pro, has leadership skills, and once again fills a need. He isn't or won't be the most overpaid player in the league, nor is his contract set up to hurt the team cap wise. Let's just enjoy the fact they have added even more talent to the teams most talented side of the ball. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MKnight82 Posted March 18, 2019 Share Posted March 18, 2019 10 hours ago, Skins212689 said: It's football players are gonna get hurt. Which probably means you should try to spread your cap out as much as possible over as many players as possible instead of giving historically high contracts to one person. If he goes down, all of that cap is dedicated to someone who's not contributing on the field. 10 hours ago, Skins212689 said: So why are people worried about Collins money so much? See above. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skins212689 Posted March 18, 2019 Share Posted March 18, 2019 (edited) 1 hour ago, MKnight82 said: Which probably means you should try to spread your cap out as much as possible over as many players as possible instead of giving historically high contracts to one person. If he goes down, all of that cap is dedicated to someone who's not contributing on the field. See above. It's ok to with you to give second tier QBs top notch guaranteed money but it's not ok to give 1st tier Safeties top notch guaranteed money. Both can go down with a significant injury! I agree to disagree with you. Edited March 18, 2019 by Skins212689 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeT14 Posted March 18, 2019 Author Share Posted March 18, 2019 If Manusky put all these players in positions to succeed and it was just poor execution, I can't believe no one tried to steal him from us. It sounds like he's incredible. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MKnight82 Posted March 18, 2019 Share Posted March 18, 2019 (edited) 2 hours ago, Skins212689 said: It's ok to with you to give second tier QBs top notch guaranteed money but it's not ok to give 1st tier Safeties top notch guaranteed money. Both can go down with a significant injury! I agree to disagree with you. What? How does this have anything to do with Landon Collins? I guess to answer your question though, QBs are SIGNIFICANTLY more valuable than Safeties. A "2nd tier" QB is going to win you a lot more games in this league than a HOF Safety would. That is just the nature of their positions. One has the ball in their hands every play, the other can impact only a few plays in a game. edit - you also missed my point entirely, I was arguing we shouldn't be trying to make anyone the highest paid player in history. Rather we should be trying to spread out our cap to have a deep roster. Edited March 18, 2019 by MKnight82 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thaiphoon Posted March 18, 2019 Share Posted March 18, 2019 2 hours ago, Skins212689 said: It's ok to with you to give second tier QBs top notch guaranteed money but it's not ok to give 1st tier Safeties top notch guaranteed money. Both can go down with a significant injury! I agree to disagree with you. Don't think anyone here was okay with giving Cousins $84M guaranteed. That's why even those who liked him, didn't want to pay up. Also, even $84M to a QB rather than a S is a play that is made more often. Simply because of the different pay scale for the positions. But please continue erecting your straw man that everyone is fine paying Cousins (seriously - can you attempt to make your point without throwing in another player no one else is talking about?) all that money. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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