The Official BDN Thread

[.Buzz]

1 minute ago, Tugboat said:

Obviously you can't keep everyone.  Especially if you're going QB shopping.  But it's about how they allocate money.

Spending honestly kinda shocking dollars on Hayden to be a decent if slightly unreliable nickel corner.  Letting Colvin go was fine.  Sucked because he was great here...but it happens.  But you can't find a Nickel CB in the draft somewhere cheap, and keep your FS instead?  They do this all over the place.  It's expected...but i'm not sure that makes it hugely savvy cap management or roster building.

I know you were a big fan of Gip, and I liked him as well but I really don't view him as some massive loss.

I'd obviously prefer Gip over Hayden, but Gip was on his way out in the next year whether this or next regardless. 

It also seemed like he was extremely undisciplined out there. Felt like there was some boneheaded personal foul every couple games in a critical juncture from him. 

We'll see, but I'm not too hurt about losing the guy. Jarrod Wilson played solid whenever called upon. May be a downgrade but I'm not sure if it'll be that much if he's who we choose to roll out.

[Tugboat]

4 minutes ago, .Buzz said:

I know you were a big fan of Gip, and I liked him as well but I really don't view him as some massive loss.

I'd obviously prefer Gip over Hayden, but Gip was on his way out in the next year whether this or next regardless. 

It also seemed like he was extremely undisciplined out there. Felt like there was some boneheaded personal foul every couple games in a critical juncture from him. 

We'll see, but I'm not too hurt about losing the guy. Jarrod Wilson played solid whenever called upon. May be a downgrade but I'm not sure if it'll be that much if he's who we choose to roll out.

Yeah, i guess we just have a different view of Gipson or something.  I see it like keeping a middle-of-the-road NB in Hayden over a Top-5 Top-10 at worst FS, with the latter being the tougher and more critical position.

Did we even have that much drop-off at NB when Hayden was out?  Like...people wanna throw Fournette away because he's "unreliable"...what's Hayden?

[.Buzz]

1 minute ago, Tugboat said:

Yeah, i guess we just have a different view of Gipson or something.  I see it like keeping a middle-of-the-road NB in Hayden over a Top-5 Top-10 at worst FS, with the latter being the tougher and more critical position.

Did we even have that much drop-off at NB when Hayden was out?  Like...people wanna throw Fournette away because he's "unreliable"...what's Hayden?

I mean, I definitely thought it was visible going from Hayden on. Harrison was quite good but he also wasn't starting at SS where he now slots in. Hayden compared to a mid/late rd corner/Patmon? I'd say it'd be a decent drop.

As far as Gip, I don't view him as a top 5 FS at all. Top 10 probably yeah, but I see a drop off with no Ramsey/Bouye/Hayden alongside him. Interested to see how he works out in Houston with a far lesser secondary around him. He was falling off a bit in Cleveland prior to getting here too.

 

[Speedyg]

28 minutes ago, .Buzz said:

Chark+Highly drafted TE.

 Cole is 6'1, Lee is 6'0, Dede is smaller but a great guy underneath who I'm sure will work well. Conley isn't a top of the depth chart guy but pretty much exactly what you describe.

Definitely not the talent in PHI though, no doubt about it. Alshon/Ertz was one heck of a duo. Just feel like it's hard to know what we have with who has been throwing them them the ball though.

I think Cole reallly really had a bad year, but forgotten is how he was such a deep threat the year before and while he did have a case of dropsies running intermediate routes, he did show ability to make highlight Odell-type catches (the middle of the field one in 2017, and the ridiculous one-hand then ****** it away from defender vs. Pats last season). I think him and Chark, if they decide to let them really go deep, could be beneficiaries of Foles deep ball.

[Tugboat]

2 minutes ago, .Buzz said:

I mean, I definitely thought it was visible going from Hayden on. Harrison was quite good but he also wasn't starting at SS where he now slots in. Hayden compared to a mid/late rd corner/Patmon? I'd say it'd be a decent drop.

As far as Gip, I don't view him as a top 5 FS at all. Top 10 probably yeah, but I see a drop off with no Ramsey/Bouye/Hayden alongside him. Interested to see how he works out in Houston with a far lesser secondary around him. He was falling off a bit in Cleveland prior to getting here too.

 

Gip is definitely a bit scheme sensitive, but he seemed to really settle back into his comfort zone with our defense after we brought Church on board beside him.  I think that one year our team didn't suck out of the last decade, Gipson was playing at a Top-5 FS level for sure.  He was a fringe Pro Bowl caliber guy there.  He took about the same sort of step back last year that Jalen and Bouye did...but again...our team was an absolute mess, and it's hard to really blame the defense for taking that step back.

I just don't see anything that Hayden does that couldn't be done cheaper, without completely jeopardizing the stability of the whole defense by jettisoning that safety net that brings out entire back end scheme together at a high level.

Yet we're keeping Hayden at essentially Gipson money to play maybe 10 games a year...because we kinda have to.  Because Hayden's dead cap this year is prohibitively expensive.

[.Buzz]

Just now, Speedyg said:

I think Cole reallly really had a bad year, but forgotten is how he was such a deep threat the year before and while he did have a case of dropsies running intermediate routes, he did show ability to make highlight Odell-type catches (the middle of the field one in 2017, and the ridiculous one-hand then ****** it away from defender vs. Pats last season). I think him and Chark, if they decide to let them really go deep, could be beneficiaries of Foles deep ball.

Same.

I'm not going into next year confident in him getting back on track, but he has shown the ability to be a quality threat while showing upside of being quite good. Idk if he ever gets there, but having an accurate/legit threat at times like Foles has shown at QB instead or Bortles wobbly ducks/Kessler should do wonders for most I figure.

[Speedyg]

Just now, Tugboat said:

Gip is definitely a bit scheme sensitive, but he seemed to really settle back into his comfort zone with our defense after we brought Church on board beside him.  I think that one year our team didn't suck out of the last decade, Gipson was playing at a Top-5 FS level for sure.  He was a fringe Pro Bowl caliber guy there.  He took about the same sort of step back last year that Jalen and Bouye did...but again...our team was an absolute mess, and it's hard to really blame the defense for taking that step back.

I just don't see anything that Hayden does that couldn't be done cheaper, without completely jeopardizing the stability of the whole defense by jettisoning that safety net that brings out entire back end scheme together at a high level.

Yet we're keeping Hayden at essentially Gipson money to play maybe 10 games a year...because we kinda have to.  Because Hayden's dead cap this year is prohibitively expensive.

Speaking of Hayden...watch Foles' 7 TD game vs. the Raiders. Sad...Hayden was just abused in that game lol.

[Tugboat]

1 minute ago, Speedyg said:

I think Cole reallly really had a bad year, but forgotten is how he was such a deep threat the year before and while he did have a case of dropsies running intermediate routes, he did show ability to make highlight Odell-type catches (the middle of the field one in 2017, and the ridiculous one-hand then ****** it away from defender vs. Pats last season). I think him and Chark, if they decide to let them really go deep, could be beneficiaries of Foles deep ball.

Yeah.  Very true.  Keelan is a tough read on what exactly we're going to get.  It could be a good fit, but i don't know that i'd call Foles just a straight up deep throw YOLO ball thrower either.  That's really more Bortles MO.  Foles is more...toss it in there and let the receiver make a 50/50 play on it.  Bortles was more...i'm going deeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeep and it was unbeknownst to anybody on either side of the ball, where exactly it might end up.

[Speedyg]

1 minute ago, Tugboat said:

Yeah.  Very true.  Keelan is a tough read on what exactly we're going to get.  It could be a good fit, but i don't know that i'd call Foles just a straight up deep throw YOLO ball thrower either.  That's really more Bortles MO.  Foles is more...toss it in there and let the receiver make a 50/50 play on it.  Bortles was more...i'm going deeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeep and it was unbeknownst to anybody on either side of the ball, where exactly it might end up.

I think that's what surprised me with Foles. Watched him every now and then, but never really "watched" him. But the more I looked at his games, you see a guy who really took chances deep. Couple of breakdown videos I've seen, they show him looking at a play and while a shorter "safe" throw would have been available, he took the deep throw one-on-one. Not the YOLO Blake we saw in 2015 with Arob...these were nicely thrown balls (for the most part) were the receiver can really make a play on the ball.

Which is why my question with him is "fit"..

One, that style would have been great with an Arob type or as we saw in Philly, Alshon (also forgotten, but dug up in archives: Riley Cooper).

Two, would Doug be OK with him taking those shots as opposed to taking the safe throws? Blake had his faults sure, but the guy was a gunslinger as a young guy (which worked when his mechanics were fine, oh man, what happened to that guy?)  and became a conservative "I can't make mistakes I'll only throw it to the open crosser vs man or dump off" kind of player under Doug.

[Tugboat]

1 hour ago, Speedyg said:

I think that's what surprised me with Foles. Watched him every now and then, but never really "watched" him. But the more I looked at his games, you see a guy who really took chances deep. Couple of breakdown videos I've seen, they show him looking at a play and while a shorter "safe" throw would have been available, he took the deep throw one-on-one. Not the YOLO Blake we saw in 2015 with Arob...these were nicely thrown balls (for the most part) were the receiver can really make a play on the ball.

Which is why my question with him is "fit"..

One, that style would have been great with an Arob type or as we saw in Philly, Alshon (also forgotten, but dug up in archives: Riley Cooper).

Two, would Doug be OK with him taking those shots as opposed to taking the safe throws? Blake had his faults sure, but the guy was a gunslinger as a young guy (which worked when his mechanics were fine, oh man, what happened to that guy?)  and became a conservative "I can't make mistakes I'll only throw it to the open crosser vs man or dump off" kind of player under Doug.

I think more that just Foles even, it's going to be interesting to see how that "3 yards and a cloud of dust" Tom and Doug mentality, ultimately jives with Flip and Foles more "air it out" philosophy.

I figure it'll either be just the thing they needed...or it'll all completely implode catastrophically by mid-season.

[Speedyg]

7 hours ago, Tugboat said:

I think more that just Foles even, it's going to be interesting to see how that "3 yards and a cloud of dust" Tom and Doug mentality, ultimately jives with Flip and Foles more "air it out" philosophy.

I figure it'll either be just the thing they needed...or it'll all completely implode catastrophically by mid-season.

thats what I mean.  Foles thrived because he was allowed to throw deep balls and take chances with Philly.

The philosophy we have seen with Doug, you might as well put Foles back with Fisher and the Rams

 

[JaguarCrazy2832]

2 hours ago, Speedyg said:

thats what I mean.  Foles thrived because he was allowed to throw deep balls and take chances with Philly.

The philosophy we have seen with Doug, you might as well put Foles back with Fisher and the Rams

 

You think running all short crossers on 3rd and 17 is bad philosophy?

[.Buzz]

2 hours ago, Speedyg said:

thats what I mean.  Foles thrived because he was allowed to throw deep balls and take chances with Philly.

The philosophy we have seen with Doug, you might as well put Foles back with Fisher and the Rams

 

I mean, do you think Marrone/Coughlin didn't look into his philosphies/mindset or go through an interview to make sure they could give together? It's pretty well known how Flip works.

[Speedyg]

4 minutes ago, .Buzz said:

I mean, do you think Marrone/Coughlin didn't look into his philosphies/mindset or go through an interview to make sure they could give together? It's pretty well known how Flip works.

I'm sure they did. But I'm sure Zimmer did too.

But it's one thing to talk about philosophy and scheme during the off season and another to actually do it in-season (especially if losses start happening and the hot seats get even hotter) .

TC was asked about it and he basically kinda sorta gave an answer while still kind of implying that we're still going to be a "balanced" offense.

And judging from TC's history with us, his definition of "balance" is the 50/50ish kind, not the Mike Leach kind.

[.Buzz]

2 hours ago, Speedyg said:

I'm sure they did. But I'm sure Zimmer did too.

But it's one thing to talk about philosophy and scheme during the off season and another to actually do it in-season (especially if losses start happening and the hot seats get even hotter) .

TC was asked about it and he basically kinda sorta gave an answer while still kind of implying that we're still going to be a "balanced" offense.

And judging from TC's history with us, his definition of "balance" is the 50/50ish kind, not the Mike Leach kind.

Sure, but he's also on the hot seat and last year's offense/conservative playstyle got us to 5 wins. That happens again and he's out. I'm sure that played a role in the hiring...plus Tom had him on his staff in NYG.