AlexGreen#20 Posted March 24, 2019 Share Posted March 24, 2019 4 minutes ago, Leader said: Okay....not contesting the comment/thought - but in a pass happy league, I think that position has significance. (Editing as I sent it too soon...) It does, it's just the least or second least valuable of your DBs based on whether you're playing your SS in zone or man Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Packerraymond Posted March 24, 2019 Share Posted March 24, 2019 2 minutes ago, packfanfb said: To Nagler's point, if you try to hide Jones as an ILB close to the LOS, good teams with a decent QB will find ways to force him into coverage and target him accordingly. If the light comes on for Jones in year 3 and he can mentally handle the game, great. If not, he's a special teamer in my book fighting for a roster spot, not part of the starting unit discussion. Let's not act like Jones is some total inept turd here, he can cover better than Martinez. He covers better than Jerrod Davis, Danny Trevathan, I mean a TE that isn't a total stud isn't going to be a mismatch for him. Sure you get Cohen out there on him, that's a mismatch, but it's a mismatch for any player on that D not named Jaire. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
packfanfb Posted March 24, 2019 Share Posted March 24, 2019 (edited) 3 minutes ago, AlexGreen#20 said: Do we really think Jones is worse in man to man against Backs and TEs than a league average ILB? Or better yet, do we think he's worse in those spots than anybody we've got for that spot? Are we gonna pretend that Morrison could cover Oprah, or that Burks didn't look every bit as lost last year? In man, he's probably okay because he doesn't have to think much. To the 2nd question, not sure we have anyone better but that's not a good thing, that's a sign of just how poor our ILB (and SAF) depth is right now. Edited March 24, 2019 by packfanfb Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Packerraymond Posted March 24, 2019 Share Posted March 24, 2019 Just now, AlexGreen#20 said: It does, it's just the least or second least valuable of your DBs based on whether you're playing your SS in zone or man You're talking centerfield safety? If it's a good one that's the #1 most important guy in your secondary bar none. Like Collins or Thomas caliber. Look at all the mediocre athletes the LOB was composed of because of ET. They essentially told Sherman, Browner, Chancellor, play physical as all hell and gamble for turnovers because ET will erase any mistakes you make. It dictates the way an entire secondary can play. We could've done the same with Collins. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
packfanfb Posted March 24, 2019 Share Posted March 24, 2019 (edited) 4 minutes ago, Packerraymond said: Let's not act like Jones is some total inept turd here, he can cover better than Martinez. He covers better than Jerrod Davis, Danny Trevathan, I mean a TE that isn't a total stud isn't going to be a mismatch for him. Sure you get Cohen out there on him, that's a mismatch, but it's a mismatch for any player on that D not named Jaire. If it comes down to physical traits only, I agree. But I don't think Jones "sees" any facet of the game out there right now. Instincts are terrible. He's the type of guy I'd imagine biting on the 5 yard slant and go on 3rd and 20 because he has zero awareness. Edited March 24, 2019 by packfanfb Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Packerraymond Posted March 24, 2019 Share Posted March 24, 2019 2 minutes ago, packfanfb said: If it comes down to physical traits only, I agree. But I don't think Jones "sees" any facet of the game out there right now. Instincts are terrible. He's the type of guy I'd imagine biting on the 5 yard slant and go on 3rd and 20 because he has zero awareness. Yeah that either comes with playing time or it doesn't. Can't coach that. Collins was super slow developing there, but he had CWood to pick the brains of in the film room. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlexGreen#20 Posted March 24, 2019 Share Posted March 24, 2019 5 minutes ago, Packerraymond said: You're talking centerfield safety? If it's a good one that's the #1 most important guy in your secondary bar none. Like Collins or Thomas caliber. Look at all the mediocre athletes the LOB was composed of because of ET. They essentially told Sherman, Browner, Chancellor, play physical as all hell and gamble for turnovers because ET will erase any mistakes you make. It dictates the way an entire secondary can play. We could've done the same with Collins. You and I have had this conversation before: Me: If the safety spot is so important how come the richest safeties in the league make good but not great #2 CB money? You: Because we're in a downswing of Safety talent, the market value is depressed. If we had better safeties across the board, teams would be obligated to pay them more because the market would raise more with each big contract signed. Me: Fair point, but if anything I feel like the lack of elite safeties would make the genuinely great one's even more valuable from a financial perspective. You: That's just not how contracts in the league are negotiated. Me: While I don't completely disagree, what about the fact that the highest paid Safeties in the league are box safeties with more man to man responsibilities? You: Again, the box safeties like Harrison Smith are better right now. There's just not a lot of genuine center field types. Me: I really don't think you can assume that. Teams really like paying guys that are sticky. You: I just don't see how you can assume that being able to cover Jan to man is more valuable than taking away that deep spot. Great defenses are built around that premise. And then one of the random noobs posts something breathtakingly stupid about Ted Thompson that triggers me and we lose the thread of conversation 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Packerraymond Posted March 24, 2019 Share Posted March 24, 2019 17 minutes ago, AlexGreen#20 said: You and I have had this conversation before: Me: If the safety spot is so important how come the richest safeties in the league make good but not great #2 CB money? You: Because we're in a downswing of Safety talent, the market value is depressed. If we had better safeties across the board, teams would be obligated to pay them more because the market would raise more with each big contract signed. Me: Fair point, but if anything I feel like the lack of elite safeties would make the genuinely great one's even more valuable from a financial perspective. You: That's just not how contracts in the league are negotiated. Me: While I don't completely disagree, what about the fact that the highest paid Safeties in the league are box safeties with more man to man responsibilities? You: Again, the box safeties like Harrison Smith are better right now. There's just not a lot of genuine center field types. Me: I really don't think you can assume that. Teams really like paying guys that are sticky. You: I just don't see how you can assume that being able to cover Jan to man is more valuable than taking away that deep spot. Great defenses are built around that premise. And then one of the random noobs posts something breathtakingly stupid about Ted Thompson that triggers me and we lose the thread of conversation Ted Thompson drafted a baseball player and a basketball player to play cornerback for us in the 2015 NFL Draft. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
n8ghee Posted March 24, 2019 Share Posted March 24, 2019 3 hours ago, AlexGreen#20 said: He's 220 pounds now. He does not need to ever be playing at 240. that would be bigger than Martinez Of all the things wrong with Jones, his body composition isn't one of them. He’s too slender to be an effective ILB. Regardless, it won’t happen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlexGreen#20 Posted March 24, 2019 Share Posted March 24, 2019 13 minutes ago, n8ghee said: He’s too slender to be an effective ILB. Regardless, it won’t happen. As opposed to dude's like Shaq Thompson, or Deion Jones? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlexGreen#20 Posted March 24, 2019 Share Posted March 24, 2019 39 minutes ago, Packerraymond said: Ted Thompson drafted a baseball player and a basketball player to play cornerback for us in the 2015 NFL Draft. Basketball has different types of athletes than football. The sort of quick change of direction and mirroring ability is what you would theoretically be looking for in a DB and Rollins balled at CB in college for one year. There's a reason everybody calls it Centerfield Safety. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leader Posted March 24, 2019 Share Posted March 24, 2019 5 minutes ago, AlexGreen#20 said: Basketball has different types of athletes than football. The sort of quick change of direction and mirroring ability is what you would theoretically be looking for in a DB and Rollins balled at CB in college for one year. There's a reason everybody calls it Centerfield Safety. Yes....but it has nothing to do with baseball skills. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlexGreen#20 Posted March 24, 2019 Share Posted March 24, 2019 23 minutes ago, Leader said: Yes....but it has nothing to do with baseball skills. Are you not standing in a wide expanse of grass, trying to get a great jump and run down and catch a ball in the air? At both high safety and Centerfield? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leader Posted March 24, 2019 Share Posted March 24, 2019 47 minutes ago, AlexGreen#20 said: Are you not standing in a wide expanse of grass, trying to get a great jump and run down and catch a ball in the air? At both high safety and Centerfield? Yes - but mostly no. In baseball you are standing in an expanse of grass and trying to get a jump on the ball (yes) - but you're only playing the ball - getting a bead on a trajectory/arc of some 350-400 feet up / down / left or right (for purposes of discussion we wont consider the stuff in front of you.....) - and chasing it down. In football - your "targets" (or considerations) are multiple (not just one ball) - they're not moving is such a direct trajectory/arc and when/if you meet up with where the ball is intended - you're responsibility is greater than simply gloving it. No. The skillsets are very different simply because the games themselves and the demands on the individual player differ. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlexGreen#20 Posted March 24, 2019 Share Posted March 24, 2019 19 minutes ago, Leader said: Yes - but mostly no. In baseball you are standing in an expanse of grass and trying to get a jump on the ball (yes) - but you're only playing the ball - getting a bead on a trajectory/arc of some 350-400 feet up / down / left or right (for purposes of discussion we wont consider the stuff in front of you.....) - and chasing it down. In football - your "targets" (or considerations) are multiple (not just one ball) - they're not moving is such a direct trajectory/arc and when/if you meet up with where the ball is intended - you're responsibility is greater than simply gloving it. No. The skillsets are very different simply because the games themselves and the demands on the individual player differ. Obviously they're not identical, but there are similar task requirements. That's not even debatable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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