Whither Josh Jones?

[AlexGreen#20]

Josh Jones vs. the Seahawks was an interesting read. Couple of observations:

He played every snap. Split the Safety/LB role about 50/50.

He and Josh Jackson look the same in uniform. 27 and 37 makes it tough some times.

He does not play deep zones. He had I believe 2 Cover-2 looks high and 0 single high looks. If he's lining up further than 8 yards off the line of scrimmage (Which he does maybe 15% of the time), it's man coverage.

The Seahawks don't have any RBs or TEs that can really challenge anybody, but he was rock solid when asked to man up on those guys.

There's a significant difference between he and Morrison in their run fills. Morrison is shot out of a cannon. Jones is far more cautious. That's good and bad, he doesn't eat it nearly as hard on play action, but ocasionally a 1 yard run with Morrison will be a 5 yard run with Jones.

Not a great open field tackler.

Blitzes a ton, he's pretty much the designated blitz guy in the pressure packages. 

++++

I'm willing to upgrade him from scrub to JAG in my internal rankings.

[MantyWrestler]

1 hour ago, AlexGreen#20 said:

He's 220 pounds now. He does not need to ever be playing at 240. that would be bigger than Martinez

Of all the things wrong with Jones, his body composition isn't one of them. 

Ya I don’t get it with him. At very least he should be a special teams demon. He’s got the body now to be an ILB so I think the questions are...

1. Is there still time for the light to go on at safety?

2. If 1. = false, can he play ILB full time? Has he shown enough to just move him there and be of value?

Edited March 24, 2019 by MantyWrestler

[AlexGreen#20]

4 minutes ago, MantyWrestler said:

Ya I don’t get it with him. At very least he should be a special teams demon. He’s got the body now to be an ILB so I think the questions are...

1. Is there still time for the light to go on at safety?

2. If 1. = false, can he play ILB full time? Has he shown enough to just move him there and be of value?

I think you might be looking at this a little too black and white.

The line between that ILB2/Safety3 position is blurry as hell. He can probably play that spot pending your expectation for that role. If you're expecting a slightly below average starter, he's not gonna kill you. If you're expecting a game changer, that's not really him. 

[MantyWrestler]

54 minutes ago, AlexGreen#20 said:

I think you might be looking at this a little too black and white.

The line between that ILB2/Safety3 position is blurry as hell. He can probably play that spot pending your expectation for that role. If you're expecting a slightly below average starter, he's not gonna kill you. If you're expecting a game changer, that's not really him. 

I think I’d keep him low as an ILB. And hope for improvement there with the reps. Don’t think it’s there as a safety. If reps can  make him an average ILB then the pick is not wasted. They just have to leave him in one spot to really learn it. If he can’t then we move on. Needs to happen now though. 

[AlexGreen#20]

1 minute ago, MantyWrestler said:

I think I’d keep him low as an ILB. And hope for improvement there with the reps. Don’t think it’s there as a safety. If reps can  make him an average ILB then the pick is not wasted. They just have to leave him in one spot to really learn it. If he can’t then we move on. Needs to happen now though. 

If you're playing a lineup of:

Smith-Clark-Daniels-Smith

Martinez

Jones

Alexander-King-Jackson

Tramon-Amos

And the offense is running a 3x1 sweet with the TE split out as the only target on the left, and Jones follows him over there and lines up across from him.

Is Jones a Safety or Linebacker in that look?

[Leader]

10 minutes ago, MantyWrestler said:

I think I’d keep him low as an ILB. And hope for improvement there with the reps. Don’t think it’s there as a safety...........

Thats why.........

I want a centerfield / free ranging / sideline 2 sideline type FS to pair up w/Amos.

Not an average guy.
Not a could be guy.
Not a "well, wait till year 3" guy.
A talent. A playmaker. A game changer. 

If we dont go ILB this draft - let Jones battle it out with Burks for field time. Whoever gives the team the best return - he sees the field w/the D.

Edited March 24, 2019 by Leader

[packfanfb]

1 minute ago, Leader said:

Thats why.........

I want a centerfield / free ranging / sideline 2 sideline type FS to pair up w/Amos.

Not an average guy.
Not a could be guy.
Not a "well, wait till year 3" guy.
A talent. A playmaker. A game changer. 

If we dont go ILB this draft - let Jones battle it out with Amos for field time. Whoever gives the team the best return - he sees the field w/the D.

Closest you're getting to that this year is Tre Boston. Maybe Eric Berry if you think he'll last past week 2. 

[Leader]

Just now, packfanfb said:

Closest you're getting to that this year is Tre Boston. Maybe Eric Berry if you think he'll last past week 2. 

I edited the last sentence of my comment as my brain and fingers weren't on the same page.

Personally I think Berry is past it. If not already - he's really close. I'd rather invest in young talent.
As for Boston - dont know the guy other than he cant land with anybody - which has to give you pause to think.

[MantyWrestler]

9 minutes ago, AlexGreen#20 said:

If you're playing a lineup of:

Smith-Clark-Daniels-Smith

Martinez

Jones

Alexander-King-Jackson

Tramon-Amos

And the offense is running a 3x1 sweet with the TE split out as the only target on the left, and Jones follows him over there and lines up across from him.

Is Jones a Safety or Linebacker in that look?

Kind of a wack question. Take Jones off the field and replace him with Burks. Same situation but I wouldn’t call Burks the safety in that defense. 

Have the TE come back in motion, from split wide, to the OL and lead block, did Jones just turn back into an ILB?

[AlexGreen#20]

1 minute ago, MantyWrestler said:

Kind of a wack question. Take Jones off the field and replace him with Burks. Same situation but I wouldn’t call Burks the safety in that defense. 

Have the TE come back in motion, from split wide, to the OL and lead block, did Jones just turn back into an ILB?

Exactly the question, and the point in trying to make.

For all the people saying, "We need to forget safety and try him at ILB and see if he can hang there." Or making the equivalent statement about the safety spot, there's not so much difference between the two. There's hugely significant overlap.

[AlexGreen#20]

11 minutes ago, Leader said:

Thats why.........

I want a centerfield / free ranging / sideline 2 sideline type FS to pair up w/Amos.

Not an average guy.
Not a could be guy.
Not a "well, wait till year 3" guy.
A talent. A playmaker. A game changer. 

If we dont go ILB this draft - let Jones battle it out with Burks for field time. Whoever gives the team the best return - he sees the field w/the D.

And how many of those are there in the league? 

Maybe Earl Thomas if he comes back healthy? Patrick Peterson or Jalen Ramsey if you're gonna be that guy and play him at Free Safety? 

It's just a skillset that's extremely rare and truthfully isn't so valuable as to die over it. I'd you've got a DB that good, 9 of 10 times he's playing Corner.

[Leader]

24 minutes ago, AlexGreen#20 said:

And how many of those are there in the league? 

Maybe Earl Thomas if he comes back healthy? Patrick Peterson or Jalen Ramsey if you're gonna be that guy and play him at Free Safety? 

It's just a skillset that's extremely rare and truthfully isn't so valuable as to die over it. I'd you've got a DB that good, 9 of 10 times he's playing Corner.

Okay....not contesting the comment/thought - but in a pass happy league, I think that position has significance. (Editing as I sent it too soon...)

How many are there? Cant say.
How many are there on the GBPs? None currently.
How many are there in this draft? Thats a subjective consideration - but I have a couple names in my head.

We keep OBSESSING over this Box Safety postion like its gonna be the turnkey to our defense - and for some reason cant (either) evaluate the talent we're considering or coach it up properly - but by any measure, cant get that talent on the field. I kinda like the old days of ILB's being ILB's (who - if you draft them right can be faster than **** and meaner than the proverbial junk yard dog) - and the backstop Safeties - chasing / cutting off / making plays back there.

Listen - if its not painfully obvious yet - I'm not a draft guy. Never was. Dont want to be. Leave it to the experts. I respect and appreciate all the comments made here as they're "leads" for me to check out. Invaluable - but (as stated numerous times already.....) I'm viewing things NOT on an indivudual player's talents - but positionally - and Safety is one of the positions I want to kill off this draft - that centerfield guy.

Not high on alot of other draft boards - but it is on mine. Doesnt make me right. I dont need to be right. Its just an observation on my part.

I''d be really pleased if GB could put an END to this wandering and sifting thru average talents. Done. For a few years at least.

Edited March 24, 2019 by Leader

[packfanfb]

5 minutes ago, AlexGreen#20 said:

Exactly the question, and the point in trying to make.

For all the people saying, "We need to forget safety and try him at ILB and see if he can hang there." Or making the equivalent statement about the safety spot, there's not so much difference between the two. There's hugely significant overlap.

To Nagler's point, if you try to hide Jones as an ILB close to the LOS, good teams with a decent QB will find ways to force him into coverage and target him accordingly. 

If the light comes on for Jones in year 3 and he can mentally handle the game, great. If not, he's a special teamer in my book fighting for a roster spot, not part of the starting unit discussion.

Edited March 24, 2019 by packfanfb

[MantyWrestler]

2 minutes ago, AlexGreen#20 said:

Exactly the question, and the point in trying to make.

For all the people saying, "We need to forget safety and try him at ILB and see if he can hang there." Or making the equivalent statement about the safety spot, there's not so much difference between the two. There's hugely significant overlap.

Well, that’s kind of what the ILB has always been. Sometimes they cover sometimes they play run. Safety does too just not as often. Hell every position does it once in a while. I do get your point and understand that ILb’s need to cover more and more. Your still not asking him to chase down WR’s from his ILB position. 

[AlexGreen#20]

1 minute ago, packfanfb said:

To Nagler's point, if you try to hide Jones as an ILB close to the LOS, good teams with a decent QB will find ways to force him into coverage and target him accordingly. 

If the light comes on for Jones in year 3 and he can mentality handle the game, great. If not, he's a special teamer in my book fighting for a roster spot, not part of the starting unit discussion.

Do we really think Jones is worse in man to man against Backs and TEs than a league average ILB?

Or better yet, do we think he's worse in those spots than anybody we've got for that spot? Are we gonna pretend that Morrison could cover Oprah, or that Burks didn't look every bit as lost last year?