Is Rob Gronkowski the GOAT TE?

[Chiefer]

He didn't do it for long enoug, so no.

He's like Gale Sayers or Terrell Davis. Dominant, heck even the greatest ever... for a short time. But being the best means being healthy too.

[childofpudding]

I can understand arguments both ways, but I think the analogies to WR and RB are a bit off.

Rice to Moss isn't correct. Not only does Rice dominate Moss in cumulative stats, but he also had more receiving yards per game. He also has more than twice as many AP 1st teams.

Smith to Sanders isn't quite correct either. Smith dominates in cumulative stats, but Sanders dominates in per game and per attempt stats, and he also had one more All-Pro 1st Team than Smith.

Gonzalez to Gronkowski is somewhat in the middle. Gonzalez dominates in cumulative stats, while Gronkowski dominates in per game, per reception and per target stats. Gonzalez has 6 AP 1st Team selections to Gronkowski's 4, but it was done in 17 years compared to 9.

I really don't think you can fault anyone for picking either.

[CKS97]

Hell no

good riddance to one of the most overrated players of all time

[C0LTSFAN4L1F3]

Tony Gonzalez is the GOAT easily. He was productive no matter which scrubby *** QB was throwing to him. He only had a good QB upon being an old hag, and broke every record in every major category for TEs. Gronk played 9 years almost entirely with one of the GOAT QBs, and exclusively in the modern era of football, it shouldn't be too shocking that he was more productive at his peak than Gonzo was. And the guy played 9 years, that actually means something. Consistency and longevity are important. And Gronk was too injury prone, too. 

[Piquel]

If jj Watt retired today, is he better then Reggie White, Bruce Smith?

I don't think it's even close.  Same with Gronk   

Sharpe, Gonzo, and Gates changed the TE position and how the game is played.  Winslow's was to far ahead of his time.  They opened up the middle of the field reliable at a time where there were "defenseless receivers" but they were the ones penalized with blindside, helmet to helmet, driven to the ground hits.  The d got congrats while the QB got blamed for hanging the receiver out to dry.  

Teams were slow to test that area of the field even after nfl started calling penalties.  After Sharpe, Gonzalez, Gate's  with the size/speed had success all teams tried to emulate it.  Before them TE's rarely even ran routes compared to now.  So it isn't just pass friendly rules it's also play calling.  I bet Tony G stayed in as a blocker on passing down's in one season as many times as Gronk did for his career.  

 

Longitivity does matter but not much.  More important side is peak longitivity.  How many years were you #1 or top tier.  Tony G's peak lasted longer then Gronk's career. 

 

Dominance is also a factor.  What's the gap between you and your peers.  Gronk's wins here on the surface because Tony G was 1a 1b with Sharpe early and Gates later while Gronk was sole #1 with some stolen by injuries.  But even considering that I'll give Gronk the edge here.

 

Injuries I don't consider much separately because I don't believe in the injury what if's.  If a player is injury prone it will show up in lost peak years and thats penalty enough imho.

[john305]

On 3/24/2019 at 7:48 PM, SkippyX said:

This always comes down to how much you value mediocre longevity (you shouldn't)

Gronk played the same number of years as Kellen Winslow who was the greatest in his time.

Gronk is clearly the greatest now. Any objective look at it comes up Gronk easy.

 

Here are some per 16 games played in the regular season and playoffs:

Gronk

• 73.2 catches 1092 yards 11 TDs  at 15.1 per catch
• 81 catches  1163 yards  12 TDs 14.4 per catch

Gates

• 65 catches 803 yards 7.9 TDs 12.4 per catch
• 68 catches 720 yards 2.7 TDs 10.6 per catch

Sharpe

• 64 catches 789 yards 4.9 TDs  at 12.3 per catch
• 55 catches 724 yards 3.6 TDs at 13.1 per catch

Gonzalez

• 78.5 catches 896 yards 6.6 TDs at 11.4 per catch
• 68.6 catches 654 yards 9.1 TDs at 9.5 per catch

Witten

• 77.1 catches 833 yards 4.6 TDs at 10.8 per catch
• 90 catches  972  yards  2 TDs  10.8 per catch

 

You deal with him missing 29 of 144 regular season games and 5 of 21 playoff games. 

• This is because he was 92% Randy Moss / 92 % Orlando Pace
  • Moss scored 11.5 TDs per 16 regular season and averaged 15.6 per catch
• The other guys were possession receivers who may or may not have been adequate/good blockers.

 

This as always is the classic Vinny Testaverde vs Kurt Warner argument.

• Vinny 275 TDs - Warner 208
• Vinny 46,233 passing yards - Warner 32,344

But Vinny did it for longer and got hurt less!  

Pro-Vinny guys will never stop.

They never make the Vinny argument but they make every single equivalent.

The era they both played in is completely different. This is a pass happy era with inflated numbers not just for Gronk but a lot of TE's. If it was just Gronk beasting than one could say he is head and shoulders better than everyone else but it's not just Gronk beasting it's TE's as a whole. Passing is just plain ol easier now than it's ever been. We have guys like Eric Ebron getting 13 TD's which was a TE record the previous decade.

 

From 2000-2009 there were 10 1k seasons from the TE position accomplished by 5 TE's

From 2010-2018 there are 18 1k seasons from the TE position accomplished by 9 TE's.

 

From 2000-2009 there were 8 double digit TD seasons from the TE position accomplished by 5 TE's.

From 2010-2018 there are 19 double digit TD seasons from the TE position accomplished by 10 TE's.

 

This screams inflated numbers, this decade has double the production at the TE position compared to the previous decade.

[CP3MVP]

Everybody who played after 1978 is playing in a pass happy era. 

[CP3MVP]

Also Gronk Played on better overall teams than Gonzalez, but Gonzales played on comparable offenses. Footballoutsiders did their top 30 offenses of the previous 30(1987-2016)years and the early 00’s Chiefs Were right there with the 2010-2012 Patriots. The 02 chiefs actually ranked higher than the 2011 and 2012 Patriots offenses.

[ET80]

10 minutes ago, CP3MVP said:

Also Gronk Played on better overall teams than Gonzalez, but Gonzales played on comparable offenses. Footballoutsiders did their top 30 offenses of the previous 30(1987-2016)years and the early 00’s Chiefs Were right there with the 2010-2012 Patriots. The 02 chiefs actually ranked higher than the 2011 and 2012 Patriots offenses.

That's offense in its entirety - KC was not a balanced offense, they lived and died on the ground. Priest Holmes and Larry Johnson we're 350+ carry guys (Larry Johnson once logged over 400 carries - not even touches, actual carries). They were the engine that that entire team was built around. If it wasn't for Mike Shanahan's Denver ZBS, this KC offense is the most prolific run offense that decade.

New England's run game was functional at best, FAR from run oriented. Tom Brady throwing the ball 500+ times was the engine that runs that offense.

I think @Jakuvious had a great set of stats, something like that KC offense only had about 18 TDs a season - which is roughly 1/3rd of a Tom Brady season.

It was an elite offense, but that's because they'd hand the ball off 65% of the time.

[CP3MVP]

33 minutes ago, ET80 said:

That's offense in its entirety - KC was not a balanced offense, they lived and died on the ground. Priest Holmes and Larry Johnson we're 350+ carry guys (Larry Johnson once logged over 400 carries - not even touches, actual carries). They were the engine that that entire team was built around. If it wasn't for Mike Shanahan's Denver ZBS, this KC offense is the most prolific run offense that decade.

New England's run game was functional at best, FAR from run oriented. Tom Brady throwing the ball 500+ times was the engine that runs that offense.

I think @Jakuvious had a great set of stats, something like that KC offense only had about 18 TDs a season - which is roughly 1/3rd of a Tom Brady season.

It was an elite offense, but that's because they'd hand the ball off 65% of the time.

1.)It wasn’t just an “elite offense” they were some of the best offenses in history. Gonzo didn’t have a “Great” Qb(Trent Green is massively underrated) but he played on all time offenses. 

2.)Brady threw the ball more, but they got similar targets. For example Gonzo got 150 Targets in 2000. Gronk never had that. 

Edit- I just looked it up The Chiefs had 582 attempts in 2000

[TecmoSuperJoe]

25 minutes ago, ET80 said:

That's offense in its entirety - KC was not a balanced offense, they lived and died on the ground. Priest Holmes and Larry Johnson we're 350+ carry guys (Larry Johnson once logged over 400 carries - not even touches, actual carries). They were the engine that that entire team was built around. If it wasn't for Mike Shanahan's Denver ZBS, this KC offense is the most prolific run offense that decade.

New England's run game was functional at best, FAR from run oriented. Tom Brady throwing the ball 500+ times was the engine that runs that offense.

I think @Jakuvious had a great set of stats, something like that KC offense only had about 18 TDs a season - which is roughly 1/3rd of a Tom Brady season.

It was an elite offense, but that's because they'd hand the ball off 65% of the time.

A couple of seasons when Trent Green and Chiefs were rolling offensively (2002 to 2005), they ranked pretty high in pass attempts a couple of years. Green in even led the league in pass attempts in 2004, and the Chiefs were 6th overall in pass attempts. I guess this is squabbling, but they seemed more towards balance than living and dying on the ground. When I think of that, I think of a team like the Ravens or something with Jamal Lewis, and substandard quarterback play. 

[CP3MVP]

Also a QBs impact on a WR/TE’s numbers is drastically overstated especially when you’re not talking about the best QB in the league versus the worst. It’s more about overall team system and structure than QB quality.

“Calvin Johnson had 1900 yards with Matt Stafford. Tom Brady is better than Matt stafford so that means Calvin would have 2500 yards with Brady if he can have 1900 with Matt”

[ET80]

36 minutes ago, CP3MVP said:

2.)Brady threw the ball more, but they got similar targets. For example Gonzo got 150 Targets in 2000. Gronk never had that. 

Edit- I just looked it up The Chiefs had 582 attempts in 2000

2000 is probably the last time you didn't see KC take a run first offense - the run game took form once Holmes signed as a FA from Baltimore. 

38 minutes ago, PapaShogun said:

A couple of seasons when Trent Green and Chiefs were rolling offensively (2002 to 2005), they ranked pretty high in pass attempts a couple of years. Green in even led the league in pass attempts in 2004, and the Chiefs were 6th overall in pass attempts. I guess this is squabbling, but they seemed more towards balance than living and dying on the ground. When I think of that, I think of a team like the Ravens or something with Jamal Lewis, and substandard quarterback play. 

Specific to that 2004 season - that was a year where both Holmes missed half the season with a knee injury and Larry Johnson found himself in the doghouse with the coaching staff. Derrick Blaylock was getting starters' time in there, and when that happens, you have to adjust accordingly.

[ET80]

41 minutes ago, CP3MVP said:

Also a QBs impact on a WR/TE’s numbers is drastically overstated especially when you’re not talking about the best QB in the league versus the worst. It’s more about overall team system and structure than QB quality.

“Calvin Johnson had 1900 yards with Matt Stafford. Tom Brady is better than Matt stafford so that means Calvin would have 2500 yards with Brady if he can have 1900 with Matt”

This isn't applicable because we already have the numbers and we're already trying to make conclusions based on these figures. I didn't break out the YPG stat or TDPG stats, somebody trying to justify Gronk as the superior player did that - and before we can take these numbers as fact, we need to validate the situation in which these numbers were compiled, which leads to the comparison of supporting casts.

Unless you think Brady is a product of Gronk's dominance at the position (you don't, I know this) it's absolutely the next step in this discussion, given the data that's been provided to this point.

[MSURacerDT55]

Easy to say he's the GOAT when you had Tom Brady throwing you passes, what receiver excelled when they left the Patriots?