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Will Arizona take Murray at No. 1?


dll2000

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I know this is being discussed elsewhere, but this is smartest of sub-boards on this site so I thought I would focus conversation here so I didn't have to wade through idiots.  This to me is the most interesting story going right now.  

Main reason I find this story fascinating is it is kind of a huge slap to your own face if you walk away from your own coach and QB pick after one year.  If they actually do that I don't know whether to be aghast or impressed that they were willing to cut their losses so quickly.  

We start with the strange fact that the Cardinals fired their HC after 1 year.  This is not something you should see outside of a change in GM, owner, scandal or loss of locker room control.  But no, same GM who made the hire is still there.   That is weird.  

So said GM, Steve Keim, hires a new coach out of college and it surfaces that this guy is on tape saying if he was ever an NFL coach Kyler Murray is going to be his no. 1 pick.   Now this came out before a game in which he was playing Kyler Murray, so that can be blown off as so much coach speak.  

Still the media and social media ran with speculation about Cardinals selecting Murray.  Cardinals came out on Twitter and said it was all nonsense. They said, Josh is still our guy and our feelings for Josh are still same!  (Are those feelings good? LOL) Okay that makes sense, after all you traded up in the first round for this guy just last year.  Again, same GM is still there.  This is his hand picked guy he traded up for and it has only been one season.  After that dies down a short time later GM says this at NFL Combine, “Is Josh Rosen our quarterback? He is right now.”  What?!? 

People say this is a ruse.  They say it's a ploy to drive up value for trade partners for no. 1 pick.   But does idea that they may take Murray no. 1 really drive up that picks value and if they have every intention of going with Rosen is it worth it to go through with this ruse?

I mean who are prime potential movers for a QB?  Giants, Jags, Broncos, Washington and maybe the Bengals.  Are they thinking, I have to trade with Cardinals if I want Murray?  I wouldn't think that were I them.  If Cardinals want Murray they are going to take Murray.  They have no. 1 over all pick.  It's not like Bears situation wanting Mitch Trubisky with two teams drafting in front of them and plenty of games that can be played.  I'm not thinking they are going to take Murray unless I make them an offer they can't refuse.  I have to change their mind on this pick!   

I guess my point is that bluffing they may take Murray doesn't really help them that much.  It only hurts them with Rosen.   It devalues his trade value because it signals you don't like him which is a red flag.   It also demoralizes him to himself and to the team.  If you want to trade the no. 1 pick it's best just to stay completely silent and leave it a mystery.  Say you are open to trades for the pick and don't say anything about Rosen other than he is our QB and we love him.   I can understand if you don't want to say you are completely opposed to taking a QB because it leaves open possibility that a team may have to trade with you to be assured of getting their guy.  It should be a mystery who that guys is though and doesn't have to be one at all if you know you like a QB and are going to take him.  Colts didn't have to be mysterious about taking Peyton Manning or Andrew Luck.   They just took them.  

If you do like Murray and are going to take him you should say things all winter like, "We are loving Rosen.  He grew a lot last year." Put out press takes and tweets of Rosen working out and meeting with new coaches.  Quotes about how blown away new staff is with him.   Drive up Rosen's value to others.   Then when it gets close to draft announce you are taking Murray and say, "While we love Rosen, we just feel like Murray is a better fit for the system our new coach wants to run. It's risky because we have Rosen in hand, but life is risk sometimes"  Then trade Rosen to highest bidder because Rosen is going to be your actual trade, not the pick.  Rosen is the value you need to drive up.   Right now if they plan on taking Murray it seems to others like you are just trying to get rid of your trash.    I am going to low ball you for Rosen or I may not even want him at all.  Why do I want your trash?  How am I going to sell Rosen to my fans?  

The opposite is happening.  Instead of Rosen being hyped and lauded there is lots of local press speculation that this guy doesn't like being in Arizona and isn't doing crap in offseason except being an environmental activist.  While that may be great for Earth, it doesn't help the football team or his trade value.  GMs want obsessed single minded guys to be their QBs.  They all want Peyton Manning.  

It seems like floating the Murray pick is a ruse with no point or they are doing everything backward from what they should depending on their goals.  Maybe I am missing some strategy here.

Other question, and one I started in general awhile back, is what is Rosen's trade value?  I think they can get a second rounder and maybe if they can generate a bidding war a first rounder.   But to me there is no way I give a first rounder for this guy when he doesn't seem to have a passion for the game.  I actually personally don't touch him, but teams can be desperate and he does have talent.

 

 

 

 

Edited by dll2000
typo
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I agree, there is almost no scenario in which this will they/won't they stuff is helpful to their position. 

 

I don't think the Cardinals are going to be very good in any variant of their current form.  I think Rosen (like Mahomes) needed to be in the perfect spot to be successful and clearly last year wasn't it.  I don't think much of Kiff Klingsbury, and I think the way Mahomes looked in his system is an indictment of KK as well.  

 

Was really tempting to prove your first sentence wrong and just jump on here and be like "Lol ur stupid dood" by the way. 

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3 minutes ago, soulman said:

It's also possible Arizona is competing to become the NFLs new version of the Cleveland Browns.  Just keep drafting QBs 'til you find one whose good.

Agreed...no doubt in my mind Arizona take Murray at #1 overall...also no doubt in my mind that in 3 years time they are looking for another franchise QB...I think Murray is a unique athlete but I don't think he is an NFL QB given that I don't see someone who will be able to sit in the pocket and just beat teams with his arm which the size, speed and overall athletic ability of NFL defences force you to do...I also can't believe that Kliff Kingsbury is an NFL HC...I see him as one and done.

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28 minutes ago, Madmike90 said:

Agreed...no doubt in my mind Arizona take Murray at #1 overall...also no doubt in my mind that in 3 years time they are looking for another franchise QB...I think Murray is a unique athlete but I don't think he is an NFL QB given that I don't see someone who will be able to sit in the pocket and just beat teams with his arm which the size, speed and overall athletic ability of NFL defences force you to do...I also can't believe that Kliff Kingsbury is an NFL HC...I see him as one and done.

Am I wrong to be assuming now that Cleveland has shown signs of life some other team must fill the vacuum of worst run team on the planet?

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I don't think that the Murray talk is a ploy. Simply because we keep hearing it (doesn't come and go), and Kingsbury is so enamored with the guy. 

I think Rosen can net a pair of seconds, (this year and next), and Gettleman would be well served jumping all over that. I still think Rosen could be a fine QB...

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2 hours ago, soulman said:

Am I wrong to be assuming now that Cleveland has shown signs of life some other team must fill the vacuum of worst run team on the planet?

Well Detroit got out, now were seeing Cleveland get out. Really is looking like Arizona or Miami to me is the next butthole of the league.

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JLC says they will trade Rosen in the next 6 weeks, so that clearly cant cant happen now.  My hope for the organization would be that it's all a ruse. They have taken Rosen behind closed doors told them that he is their guy and this is the plan to try and get him as much help as possible so that he can have a 2nd year like Goff and MT10.  That's what I would hope is happening.  I'm honestly worried that this is just now a terrible run team and they will be bottom dwellers and inept for a long time.  If I'm the Giants, Skins, Pats, Chargers I'm calling every day to find out what its going to take to pry the kid out of the desert.  If I'm the Pack, Titans, Bucs, Vikes I'm giving serious consideration to it.  For my money he was the 2nd most talented QB in the draft last year after Allen and I think he could be a Rodgersesque QB in 2 years.

As for Murray, I'm with MM90.  I dont see that being a smart play.  He isnt a unique talent.  There is nothing special about him.

Side Note:Jerry Jones seriously needs to just back a brinks truck up to Lincoln Rileys house next off season and promise to be totally hands off.

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9 minutes ago, DABEARSLCF04 said:

Well Detroit got out, now were seeing Cleveland get out. Really is looking like Arizona or Miami to me is the next butthole of the league.

 It would be sadly hilarious if AZ picked a QB in first round 3 years in a row and had 3 dif head coaches 3 years in a row.

 

 

 

 

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If the Cardinals draft Murray and trade Rosen after one year, That would be the dumbest thing I've seen happen.  You're trading a 1st round QB, who you traded up to get and after one year you're trading him and taking another QB with the 1st overall pick?  I doubt this is a smokescreen in trying to get a QB needy team to trade up with the cards for the 1st overall pick so they can take Murray(that would be something if they did) but it makes the cards look beyond dumb.  They have 10 picks.  If I were them, I'm drafting the best defensive player 1st overall.  I'm using 5-6 picks on offense to help Rosen.  2 O-linemen, a RB, 1 or 2 WRs and a pass catching TE. 

 

How many of us would be furious if last year we drafted a QB in the 1st round after trading up for Trubisky in 2017?  I sure as hell would have been 

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3 hours ago, Superman(DH23) said:

JLC says they will trade Rosen in the next 6 weeks, so that clearly cant cant happen now.  My hope for the organization would be that it's all a ruse. They have taken Rosen behind closed doors told them that he is their guy and this is the plan to try and get him as much help as possible so that he can have a 2nd year like Goff and MT10.  That's what I would hope is happening.  I'm honestly worried that this is just now a terrible run team and they will be bottom dwellers and inept for a long time.  If I'm the Giants, Skins, Pats, Chargers I'm calling every day to find out what its going to take to pry the kid out of the desert.  If I'm the Pack, Titans, Bucs, Vikes I'm giving serious consideration to it.  For my money he was the 2nd most talented QB in the draft last year after Allen and I think he could be a Rodgersesque QB in 2 years.

As for Murray, I'm with MM90.  I dont see that being a smart play.  He isnt a unique talent.  There is nothing special about him.

I agree with all that, and I guess my "hope" is that it's all a ruse, as well.

I don't think it is, though. 

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3 hours ago, DABEARSLCF04 said:

Well Detroit got out, now were seeing Cleveland get out. Really is looking like Arizona or Miami to me is the next butthole of the league.

Solid picks, but Tampa Bay looks to be in rough shape. They have no QB it seems and they have next to no cap space.

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17 hours ago, beardown3231 said:

Solid picks, but Tampa Bay looks to be in rough shape. They have no QB it seems and they have next to no cap space.

Its last chance for Winston.  If Arians cant make him successful nobody can.  Miami is just all in on Tua in 2020.  They have to a) unburden themselves from the crap that Tannenbaum buried them under, and b) simultaneously rebuild.  They are in the same spot the Bears were in a few years ago, except they dont need the drastic culture change.

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