footbull3196 Posted April 2, 2019 Share Posted April 2, 2019 Disclaimer: I would not have personally made the trade if I was the Giants GM. However, I can at least understand why they did and think there’s solid reasoning for the deal. This is why I want to look at it from the other side. Maybe you’ll be open to analyzing the situation differently as well after reading this Best of the Rest Odell’s Antics - his flamboyant personality had grown tiresome Sterling Shepard - the Giants already had another young wide receiver waiting in the wings 5. Dave Gettleman’s approach The Giants GM has a knack for ridding his team of star players that he feels aren’t worth it, even when he was the Panthers GM. In the 2014 offseason, he released Steve Smith after a subpar season from Smith despite the fact that many felt he still had something left to offer. He went to Baltimore and immediately produced, racking up 80 catches for over 1000 yards in his first season there at age 35 (including an absurd performance in his revenge game against his old team in Week 4). In 2016, after franchise tagging Josh Norman, Gettleman gave up on trying to work out a long term deal with him and decided he wasn’t worth the money he was seeking after a single breakout season and rescinded the tag in the middle of the offseason instead of even letting him play out the year and then walk in free agency. The Redskins immediately signed Norman to a 5 year $75 million deal 4. Saquon Barkley The Giants rookie running back had supplanted Beckham as the face of the franchise. During Barkley’s rookie season, he received the vast majority of the offensive touches and still produced with defenses geared to stop him before they stopped anyone else on the team. Defenses knew that Manning’s arm was shot and regularly stacked the box with 8-9 defenders, and yet he still averaged 5 yards per carry and caught 90 passes. It’s hard to blame the Giants too much for wanting to build around Saquon long term because they have a running back who’s already arguably the best back in the league and still has 3 years left on his rookie contract (plus a 5th year option) 3. Eli Manning wasn’t a good fit for him at this point in his career The Manning / Beckham connection started strong in Beckham’s rookie and sophomore seasons, with Manning throwing for over 4000 yards in both seasons as well as 30 TDs to 13 INTs and 35 TDs to 14 INTs in his 2014 and 2015 seasons, respectively. However, Beckham entering his prime coincided with Manning hitting a steep decline. His 2016 season wasn’t awful, but his 2017 was, and his 2018 wasn’t much better despite the statistics leading you to believe that Eli had a resurgence of sorts. Manning’s arm strength had clearly deteriorated to the point that he could no longer utilize Beckham as a deep threat. This made the Giants offense extremely predictable, and even though Beckham’s production in 2016 and 2018 were still on par with his first 2 seasons, it came in a different manner as he was running mainly quick routes and hoping to generate yards after catch 2. The Browns made a good offer Let’s not shortchange what the Browns gave up in return. They gave Jabrill Peppers, one of the most improved defensive players in the league last season, as well as both a 1st and 3rd round pick (17th and 95th overall). Keep in mind that Beckham was drafted with the 13th overall pick in 2014 and came to the Browns tied to a 5 year $95 million contract. In today’s nfl, it’s tempting to sell high on your players while they’re still in their prime to generate an influx of young players who can help build a winner while they’re on a rookie contract. This gives the Giants 3 players that can potentially do that for them. If only they weren’t still trying to build the team around Eli.... 1. They won nothing with him Only once with Beckham did the Giants win more than 6 games. In that season, they were quickly bounced from the playoffs by the Packers due to multiple critical drops by.... Odell Beckham. One might be tempted to blame the Giants 3-13 season in 2017 on Beckham’s season ending injury, but the Giants were already 0-5. They were trapped WITH odell. And when you’re trapped, you try to get out of it by generating assets for the future to bring in a greater reach of talent. Sometimes that involves using your most valuable trade bait to generate a positive return, and in this case it did. You can’t blame the Giants for trying to build for the future when they didn’t have much else they could trade to begin with. If this leads to them getting a capable quarterback, I think most Giants fans will be willing to forgive this move Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Danger Posted April 2, 2019 Share Posted April 2, 2019 If they actually get a QB I don't care what else they do. But until they do there just shooting themselves in the foot. I am flabbergasted that the Giants are apparently ride-or-dying so hard with Eli still. It's got to be a smokescreen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
footbull3196 Posted April 2, 2019 Author Share Posted April 2, 2019 7 minutes ago, Danger said: If they actually get a QB I don't care what else they do. But until they do there just shooting themselves in the foot. I am flabbergasted that the Giants are apparently ride-or-dying so hard with Eli still. It's got to be a smokescreen. I'm thinking the same thing. Maybe theyre only looking at his stats and thinking that he had some sort of bounceback season despite the fact that literally every passer in the league had a quarterback rating over 90 and threw for over 4000 yards with at least a 2 to 1 TD:INT ratio. The coddling of Eli Manning in the last 2 seasons since his benching is something that seems to make no real sense Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas5737 Posted April 2, 2019 Share Posted April 2, 2019 1 hour ago, footbull3196 said: came to the Browns tied to a 5 year $95 million contract 5 years 77 million. 1 hour ago, footbull3196 said: They won nothing with him Or Barkley, they may as well trade him too. 1 hour ago, footbull3196 said: They gave Jabrill Peppers, one of the most improved defensive players in the league last season Sorta true, he did nothing in his rookie year he played deep CF. Last year he was more involved but Peppers is probably a better pass rusher than a run supporter and certainly better rushing the passer than a coverage guy. The Giants are rebuilding for 2023, that is really the only way trading OBJ makes sense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
footbull3196 Posted April 2, 2019 Author Share Posted April 2, 2019 2 minutes ago, Thomas5737 said: 5 years 77 million. Did he restructure? Quote Or Barkley, they may as well trade him too. Well theyve only had him 1 season though as opposed to 5 Quote Sorta true, he did nothing in his rookie year he played deep CF. Last year he was more involved but Peppers is probably a better pass rusher than a run supporter and certainly better rushing the passer than a coverage guy. The Giants are rebuilding for 2023, that is really the only way trading OBJ makes sense. I actually think he's a better run supporter than a pass rusher considering he only has 1 sack for his career. I wont argue against the disparity in coverage, but either way, it seems to be a very good fit for me. The Giants just lost a box safety, so it makes sense to replace him with another one that's still on his rookie deal rather than pay Landon Collins $14 million a year IMO there arent a whole lot of players in the NFL that net both a mid 1st and a 3rd plus a player in return. You have to take that while you still can if you feel that it's in the best interest of your team long term Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas5737 Posted April 2, 2019 Share Posted April 2, 2019 38 minutes ago, footbull3196 said: 50 minutes ago, Thomas5737 said: 5 years 77 million. Did he restructure? No that is just the total due, the signing bonus became dead money for the Giants. 40 minutes ago, footbull3196 said: IMO there arent a whole lot of players in the NFL that net both a mid 1st and a 3rd plus a player in return. You have to take that while you still can if you feel that it's in the best interest of your team long term Only superstars (or QBs). Why they felt it was in the best interest long is the part I don't understand. Prior to the trade I stated multiple times that there wasn't going to be a trade because it didn't make sense for the Giants, to me it still doesn't. They won't be better this year because of the deal, or likely for the duration of his contract. Maybe they find a guy in the draft at that spot(s) but unlikely. Peppers is okay as a player but he probably isn't going to be a pro bowl caliber safety. I'd rather have an all pro caliber WR than an average safety, the 17th pick and a late 3rd. We'll see. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duluther Posted April 2, 2019 Share Posted April 2, 2019 However rudimentary the idea may be, I believe receivers are still luxury pieces that don’t win you football games moreso than any other position (sans the obvious FB/P/etc), Combining that with the fact that his prime will never align with a theoretical window for the current Giants’ regime, I don’t see how this trade wasn’t for the better (if not still painful on a personal level for NYJ fans). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kiwibrown Posted April 2, 2019 Share Posted April 2, 2019 32 minutes ago, Duluther said: However rudimentary the idea may be, I believe receivers are still luxury pieces that don’t win you football games moreso than any other position (sans the obvious FB/P/etc), Combining that with the fact that his prime will never align with a theoretical window for the current Giants’ regime, I don’t see how this trade wasn’t for the better (if not still painful on a personal level for NYJ fans). on our Gms list 1 QB 2 Pass Rush 3 Pass protector 4 cover palyers 5 WR That is our philosophy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
megatechpc Posted April 2, 2019 Share Posted April 2, 2019 I don't personally have any issue with the Giants trading OBJ and I think it was the right move for the team moving forward. The MAJOR problem with this whole situation is not the trade, but the massive contract extension they just gave him a few months ago. The fact of the matter is that NY was not going to win anything with Beckham on the roster; he was a near-daily distraction, he was cancerous to the locker room (I can't get over the boat trip tbh), and Eli can't really properly utilize his skill set anyway. This trade would've made a ton more sense had the Giants not resigned him to that long term deal as the huge amount of dead money they are now liable for is going to limit what they can do over the next year or two. To be clear, trading Beckham in no way makes the Giants a better football team (of course), but they have resigned themselves to the fact that the team is a total loss in the short term and the only way forward is to dump as much salary as possible and start rebuilding through the draft. That plan would've been far more realistic in the short term had they not just forked over all that money to a guy they were clearly uncomfortable remaining on the roster... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malik Posted April 2, 2019 Share Posted April 2, 2019 The Giants are going to get rid of Sterling Shepard. The Giants losing has significantly more to do with Eli than Odell who currently needs perfect conditions to be a functional QB. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jakuvious Posted April 2, 2019 Share Posted April 2, 2019 13 hours ago, footbull3196 said: 1. They won nothing with him Only once with Beckham did the Giants win more than 6 games. In that season, they were quickly bounced from the playoffs by the Packers due to multiple critical drops by.... Odell Beckham. One might be tempted to blame the Giants 3-13 season in 2017 on Beckham’s season ending injury, but the Giants were already 0-5. They were trapped WITH odell. And when you’re trapped, you try to get out of it by generating assets for the future to bring in a greater reach of talent. Sometimes that involves using your most valuable trade bait to generate a positive return, and in this case it did. You can’t blame the Giants for trying to build for the future when they didn’t have much else they could trade to begin with. If this leads to them getting a capable quarterback, I think most Giants fans will be willing to forgive this move I despise this kind of logic. Winning nothing with a player does not mean they do not carry value. It does not mean they cannot help you win something later. And it does not mean you wouldn't have still been worse without said player those years you won nothing. It's not like OBJ was a declining vet who was only really going to contribute the next two years. They could execute a full rebuild and still have OBJ in his prime when the results roll around. There are some arguments I can understand justifying the move. Generally I dislike some of the other things the Giants are doing more than I dislike them trading OBJ. But this particular argument I hate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
minutemancl Posted April 2, 2019 Share Posted April 2, 2019 34 minutes ago, Jakuvious said: I despise this kind of logic. Winning nothing with a player does not mean they do not carry value. It does not mean they cannot help you win something later. And it does not mean you wouldn't have still been worse without said player those years you won nothing. It's not like OBJ was a declining vet who was only really going to contribute the next two years. They could execute a full rebuild and still have OBJ in his prime when the results roll around. There are some arguments I can understand justifying the move. Generally I dislike some of the other things the Giants are doing more than I dislike them trading OBJ. But this particular argument I hate. Same. Especially since it is confounding. Sure, we didn't win anything with Odell. But was he the reason why? Absolutely not. He was actually directly and solely responsible for a lot more wins than he was losses. Odell wasn't such a detriment with his personality compared to how good of a player he is that we are a better team without him. Could we be a better team after using the assets acquired for him? Maybe, but that obviously remains to be seen. One interesting thing I watched is a breakdown of Eli from last season. The guy doing the breakdown watched all 16 games and saw that Eli made all the right reads and can make all the throws... except when he was throwing to OBJ. He forced it into coverage way more than he had to only when throwing to OBJ. And OBJ on tape was visibly frustrated a ton of times throughout the season when he didn't get the ball when he was open. It may turn out to be a better situation for the Giants without Odell, where there isn't a receiver Eli wants to force the ball to, and for the Browns with Odell, who have a great young QB who can find and get the ball to Odell. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EL Guapo Posted April 2, 2019 Share Posted April 2, 2019 We have no idea what he is really like. He showed severe rage and anger issues with violent tendencies on multiple occasions including committing felony assault on the field. That combined with the narcissism and stardom and all the antics you can start to piece together some behavioral issues he may have. He's probably impossible to deal with sometimes. Then I hear how the Giants let him get with away with stuff and the rest of players got pissed and it starts to become clearer. I think most the good things you hear about him are true, I think he has a good heart and tries to be a good teammate , he just has some problems. I don't ignore all this stuff because teenagers told me it's not important. Maybe it wasn't bad enough to trade him, I would have tried my best not to trade him. I also understand I could be wrong about him Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soko Posted April 2, 2019 Share Posted April 2, 2019 14 hours ago, footbull3196 said: 5. Dave Gettleman’s approach The Giants GM has a knack for ridding his team of star players that he feels aren’t worth it, even when he was the Panthers GM. Is this a valid justification for making the move, though? It’s an explanation, but perhaps not a good one. This GM parted with star players in the past, so expect it to happen again. Being known for making questionable decisions does not justify them IMO. Quote 4. Saquon Barkley It’s hard to blame the Giants too much for wanting to build around Saquon long term because they have a running back who’s already arguably the best back in the league and still has 3 years left on his rookie contract True, but I’m not sure the two couldn’t coexist. It didn’t have to be one or the other. Quote 3. Eli Manning wasn’t a good fit for him at this point in his career However, Beckham entering his prime coincided with Manning hitting a steep decline. I don’t believe Eli is a good fit for anyone anymore. The fact that he’s not a good QB isn’t a good reason to get rid of a star wideout, IMO. Especially if they plan on doing something at QB with #6. Quote 2. The Browns made a good offer They gave Jabrill Peppers, one of the most improved defensive players in the league last season, as well as both a 1st and 3rd round pick (17th and 95th overall). I suppose. The compensation wasn’t bad, per se. Unless Beckham falls off a cliff (which I think is widely viewed as unlikely) then I lean towards taking the proven talent. He’s an elite receiver in his prime, so turning him into two picks and a decent safety isn’t all that tantalizing. Quote 1. They won nothing with him You can’t blame the Giants for trying to build for the future when they didn’t have much else they could trade to begin with. Disagree with this one here. You don’t see the Rams trading Aaron Donald during their re-build. The don’t see the Chargers trading Phillip Rivers because they can’t win playoff games. You don’t see the Vikings trading Adrian Peterson, the Lions trading Calvin Johnson, the Texans trading Andre Johnson, the Cardinals trading Larry Fitzgerald, or Dolphins trading Cameron Wake. OBJ wasn’t the reason this team wasn’t winning. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FrantikRam Posted April 2, 2019 Share Posted April 2, 2019 I'm not a huge fan of paying star players. Aaron Donald, by many metrics, has been the best overall player in the NFL for years now - he's just about the only guy I would pay his "market value" - his production, attitude, work ethic are all outstanding. And he's *knock on wood* never been injured. With OBJ you have some injuries, attitude problems - I never would have paid him. Wouldn't have given Gurley that much money (even before the mystery injury this year). I think the Raiders won the Khalil Mack trade - he's not really even close to Donald but paid like him - this is the crux of paying superstars. And then you get into paying a WR or RB that much money when they are completely dependent upon other positions for their success....don't like it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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