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Calvin Johnson is a first ballot hofer; change my mind

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7 minutes ago, Thomas5737 said:

Brown wouldn't be for the same reason T.O. wasn't a first ballot, too much drama. Calvin didn't really have that and that means you just base it on their play and I think that will make him first ballot. All of the crazy stuff is great for recognition but I think it hurts players, receivers specifically, when it comes time to get the media's vote for the HOF.

Agreed. Plus, Calvin had 1300-12 with Kitna, Orvolsky, & a washed Culpepper in 2008. The guy was simply just a freak.

Brown will get to prove how good he is without Ben at the helm. I think his career in Oakland will prove a lot about him.

Edited by Nzd07

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Raymond Berry: 2x champion, 4x First Team All Pro, 2x Second Team All Pro, 1950's All Decade Team, retired as the leader in most receiving stats)

Steve Largeant: 3x First Team All Pro, 4x  Second Team All Pro, 1980's All Decade Team, retired with every single WR record. 

Randy Moss: 4x First Team All Pro, 2000's All Decade Team, holds the single season receiving TD record. 

Jerry Rice: 3x champion,  10x First Team All Pro, 2x Second Team All Pro, 1980's and 1990's All Decade Team, currenly holds the record for receptions, receiving yards, receiving touchdowns, total touchdowns, and all purpose yards. 

Paul Warfield: 2x champion 6x First Team All Pro, 1x Second Team All Pro, 1970's All Decade Team, still holds the record for highest Yards Per Reception for Receivers with atleast 300 or more receptions. 

Those are the 5 WR's who were inducted first ballot into the Pro Football HOF. Then you have Lance Alworth who was far and away the best WR in the AFL

Calvin Johnson

-had a shorter career than any of them. 

-never won a championship

-has 3x First Team All Pros and 1x Second Team All Pro which is the worst showing of any of the First Ballot guys. 

-retired 44th all time in receptions. 

-retired 30th all time in receiving yards.

-retired in a tie for 22nd all time in receiving TD's 

-Only stat he retired in impressive standing in is receiving yards per game. He is 4th. 1 is Julio Jones, 2 is Odell Beckham Jr., 3 is Antonio Brown, 5 is Michael Thomas, 6 is AJ Green. Clearly a recency thing. 

- one thing that will help is that he holds the single season receiving yards record. However Brown and Jones are in the top 5 so again it feels like a recency thing. 

- because he missed about half this decade he will struggle to get on the All Decade Team. 

 

He clearly is a step below those who made it in

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^Maybe in your opinion, but not mine.

I personally hold prime/peak dominance as a HUGE indicator of greatness.

Football is an incredibly violent sport.

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41 minutes ago, MrOaktown_56 said:

All conventional wisdom says yes, but I don't think so, even though he's lead the league in yards, catches, and TDs since 2013 IIRC.

None of the conventional wisdom says yes and people really need to actually look at the HOF and how they've voted on the position for HOF'ers. 

5 NFL players (6 counting Alsworth) went first ballot at WR. 

2 Centers went in first ballot

7 Cornerbacks went in first ballot

5 Defensive Ends went in first ballot

5 Defensive Tackles went in first ballot

5 Guards went in first ballot (lineman is hard because they mixed positions a lot but 5 players who were primarily guards went in)

10 linebackers went in first ballot

5 Offensive Tackes went in first ballot (same deal with the rest of the offensive lineman)

14 Quarterbacks went first ballot

11 traditional Running Backs went first ballot

1 Fullback (Jim Brown) went first ballot

3 Halfbacks went first ballot

*so basically 15 rushers went first ballot

3 Safety's went first ballot

1 Tight End went first ballot. 

So basically unless you ran ball (15), threw the ball (14) or were a linebacker (10) realistic only 5 or less at every position make it first ballot. 

It's incredibaly hard. Guys like TO and Carter waited. Harrison waited. 

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10 minutes ago, Nzd07 said:

^Maybe in your opinion, but not mine.

I personally hold prime/peak dominance as a HUGE indicator of greatness.

Football is an incredibly violent sport.

Your opinion is irrelevant. That's who the Hall of Fame voters have put in first ballot. Those are the opinions of the people who make the decision. They want you to have some sort of longevity, have many All Pro's, make it on the All Decade Team, and retire with some sort of All Time records. And 3 of the 5 had multiple championships. 

Calvin Johnson will not go in First Ballot in a world where TO didn't. 

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3 hours ago, theuntouchable said:

He played 9 seasons at a pretty damn high level. 

He had 2 playoff games in his entire career and posted nearly 300 yards and 2 TDS. 

I would be shocked if he wasn’t first ballot. 

Terrell Owens had a much better case and wasn’t first ballot

I’ll be legitimately mad if Calvin Johnson gets in on first ballot. Outside of 2011 and 2012, his numbers aren’t exactly head and shoulders above the competition like everyone is trying to claim in here, particularly OP

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1 hour ago, Malik said:

The latter. Cris Carter had the consensus for best hands of a WR ever and also had longevity but still had to wait forever to get in.

Sharpe is the most underrated NFL player of all time.  And if Carter and Tim Brown and Terrell Owens had to wait for as long as they did, so should Calvin Johnson

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Lions fan here who watched nearly every one of Calvin's games

He may be a Hall of Famer in time, simply on just that, the "fame" part. He doesn't have career defining wins. He doesn't have longevity or record stats. And it pains me to admit that all through his career, he had moments where big mistakes prevented the Lions from winning games. Drops and fumbles, mostly. But his raw physical traits and skills, and some great plays through his years, made him famous to all NFL fans.

If that gets him in one day, then that's cool, but not first ballot, no. He may not get there at all if you ask me.

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54 minutes ago, lancerman said:

Your opinion is irrelevant. That's who the Hall of Fame voters have put in first ballot. Those are the opinions of the people who make the decision. They want you to have some sort of longevity, have many All Pro's, make it on the All Decade Team, and retire with some sort of All Time records. And 3 of the 5 had multiple championships. 

Calvin Johnson will not go in First Ballot in a world where TO didn't. 

Well, you didn't specify if that was your opinion or the voters opinion.

I agree, Calvin probably won't get in first ballot because he doesn't have the longevity or team success.

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Criteria Number 1 for Hall of Fame Candidacy

Was the player considered one of the premiere, ELITE players at that position, easy the very top tier MAYBE alongside 1 or 2 other players in the league, for at least a 3-5 year period? 

Calvin Johnson, yes. Frank Gore, no.

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One thing that I do think needs to be asked. If Calvin Johnson was 6'0" 210 lbs, and ran a 4.54 40 yard dash, in turn not nicknamed Megatron, are we still having this conversation?

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2 hours ago, Nzd07 said:

^Maybe in your opinion, but not mine.

I personally hold prime/peak dominance as a HUGE indicator of greatness.

Football is an incredibly violent sport.

I don't hold injury or preserving health against people. CJ was brilliant. 

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20 minutes ago, Danger said:

One thing that I do think needs to be asked. If Calvin Johnson was 6'0" 210 lbs, and ran a 4.54 40 yard dash, in turn not nicknamed Megatron, are we still having this conversation?

If he had the same stats. 

 

I'd agree perhaps his aesthetic is part of his appeal, tall, long, lean, fast, athletic. 

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5 hours ago, Mr Bad Example said:

Longevity is overrated. 

Oh really, if you have a chance to draft a guy, would you rather have one that can be productive for you for 9 years or for 15 years? I don't see how this shouldn't matter. Especially at a position like receiver when the focus is so highly on the accumulated statistics. 

5 hours ago, Mr Bad Example said:

He played in 2 playoff games, so he doesn't have a lot of those under his belt; of course, in his first playoff game he went off for 12-211 with 2 tds. In his 2nd he managed a mere 5-85. So I'd say that he certainly showed up when he had the opportunity. 

I mean, cool. I'm more so referring to players like Larry Fitzgerald or Jerry Rice that played an enormous role in their team making a Super Bowl appearance/win. Playing good in 2 playoff games doesn't really amount to much in the way of HoF merit as far as I'm concerned. 

3 hours ago, Mr Bad Example said:

Here's another comparison: 

- is Antonio Brown a first-ballot HoF if he retired today? Because his and Johnson's career numbers are remarkably similar. 

No. Not first ballot. Not when Tim Brown, Andre Reed, Art Monk, Terrel Owens, and Cris Carter among others were not first ballot. 

4 hours ago, iknowcool said:

Calvin Johnson was one of the most dominant offensive players the league has seen and did it over a long enough period of time.  There is no reason he shouldn’t be voted in as soon as hes eligible.

How has that worked out for Sterling Sharpe? There's players with better careers who have had to wait. 

Edited by C0LTSFAN4L1F3

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