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I'm trying to understand why we are still mocking edge rushers.


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6 minutes ago, Leader said:

@JaireAlex  I realize you've gone from disliking Burns....to now hating him.....and fear if this draft takes any longer to come around you might contract a hit on the guy :) But - based on comments of some here and what I've read/seen - he's my preferred @ 12.  I'm not gonna dislike anybody they get at 12 - but I'd like that position bulked up and he's my choice.

Heh :P

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You pick the best player, and the best player is probably gonna be EDGE.

What if one of the Smiths sucks? 
What if one of the Smiths gets hurt?
What if one of the Smiths is primarily interior pass rush on most downs?
What if you pass on the next Von Miller for the next Jason Witten? 

EDGE/DL and CB are the two positions you really can't draft too many of. 

 

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1 hour ago, Leader said:

Actually......amend my comment.......
I might dislike it if we take Ferrell at 12! LOL

 argh2.gif    sherman.gif   To each their own.   I'd be happy with E.Oliver, Wilkins, J.Taylor, Burns, Sweat or Ferrell - guess I'm just easily pleased.

Edited by OneTwoSixFive
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3 hours ago, Leader said:

Thanks for the information and understood. I dont dive as deep as many others regards the talent pool, so knowing the names of potential targets down there is good to know.

The DL is very deep this year. Thats good - but, relatively speaking we've got plenty of bodies along the DL already (with the caveat that Daniels may leave next year) whereas EDGE is currently about as thin as it could be - unless the team decided to bypass the position all together. Thats why I want a top flight EDGE guy first. Will GB select that way? Probably not.

I realize you've gone from disliking Burns....to now hating him.....and fear if this draft takes any longer to come around you might contract a hit on the guy :) But - based on comments of some here and what I've read/seen - he's my preferred @ 12.  I'm not gonna dislike anybody they get at 12 - but I'd like that position bulked up and he's my choice.

Btw - since this seems topical - I'll post it here. It's a redo of a perceived "draft mistake" on ESPN:

Green Bay Packers

First round of the 2017 draft (No. 29 overall)
Actual pick: Kevin King, CB, Washington (after trading down to No. 33)
Do-over pick: T.J. Watt, OLB, Wisconsin

After the Packers traded down in Ted Thompson's final draft as general manager, the Steelers picked Watt at No. 30 and the Packers took King with the first pick in the second round (the Packers also got the No. 104 pick in trade). It seemed like a risk at the time given the Packers' need for a pass-rusher and King's history of shoulder problems. Sure enough, Watt had seven sacks as a rookie and 13 last season, while King has finished each of his first two seasons on injured reserve. The Packers then had to use their top pick in 2018 on another corner, Jaire Alexander, and spent big money on their pass rush in free agency this year with Za'Darius Smith and Preston Smith. -- Rob Demovsky

We won the Superbowl with a 6th rounder (IR'd), a UDFA and a street guy (both injured) as our number two OLB -- and CMIII. We have five edge going into this year, strongest since Peppers. 

To contrast we have THREE DL with contracts next year. It's the deepest class ever. And everyone can be upgraded. Daniels is likely not back. Not to mention we lost Mo Wilkerson and can save loads of money with better rookies. It's about money too. I think only Clark is back. That would set up our cap very well for three years.

So, I see you wanting a  luxury pick when we have easy pickings on a spot we never get shots at and a position of great need in 2020. And it takes a year or two to get them playing well.

Finally, edge are the riskiest picks. There isn't one who isn't moderately to high risk in this draft except a few try hard types. My big take here. While not opposed at all to grabbing an edge, we can get more pressure from DL in this draft 

And I would draft Watt this year at 12 over anyone. I thought that was a huge mistake at the time and am skeptical of the "meds" issue.....though clearly a lot of teams passed on him for that, so I guess it was ok. But these prospects are not Watt. I have little confidence in any of the top guys. Much rather get safer prospects at other positions, which GB likes to grab when they are given the option.

Edited by JaireAlex
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23 minutes ago, JaireAlex said:

We won the Superbowl with a 6th rounder (IR'd), a UDFA and a street guy (both injured) as our number two OLB -- and CMIII. We have five edge going into this year, strongest since Peppers. 

To contrast we have THREE DL with contracts next year. It's the deepest class ever. And everyone can be upgraded. Daniels is likely not back. Not to mention we lost Mo Wilkerson and can save loads of money with better rookies. It's about money too. I think only Clark is back. That would set up our cap very well for three years.

So, I see you wanting a  luxury pick when we have easy pickings on a spot we never get shots at and a position of great need in 2020. And it takes a year or two to get them playing well.

Finally, edge are the riskiest picks. There isn't one who isn't moderately to high risk in this draft except a few try hard types. My big take here. While not opposed at all to grabbing an edge, we can get more pressure from DL in this draft 

And I would draft Watt this year at 12 over anyone. I thought that was a huge mistake at the time and am skeptical of the "meds" issue.....though clearly a lot of teams passed on him for that, so I guess it was ok. But these prospects are not Watt. I have little confidence in any of the top guys. Much rather get safer prospects at other positions, which GB likes to grab when they are given the option.

Genuinely curious if there has been a study conducted on this, particularly with athletic R1 EDGE guys? I know the bust rate on EDGE is high for non-athletes in R1, but I haven't seen anything for guys who had tested similar to Sweat/Burns/Bosa/Allen/etc.

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3 hours ago, Outpost31 said:

You pick the best player, and the best player is probably gonna be EDGE.

What if one of the Smiths sucks? 
What if one of the Smiths gets hurt?
What if one of the Smiths is primarily interior pass rush on most downs?
What if you pass on the next Von Miller for the next Jason Witten? 

EDGE/DL and CB are the two positions you really can't draft too many of. 

 

What if you take the next Jamaal Reynolds (burns) and pass on the next Aaron Donald (Oliver)?

It's all a crapshoot.

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Just now, VegasDan said:

What if you take the next Jamaal Reynolds (burns) and pass on the next Aaron Donald (Oliver)?

It's all a crapshoot.

This Jamaal Reynolds thing is just lazy and needs to stop. If you do a Burns:Reynolds comp for any reason, you're just being lazy and should feel bad.

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1 minute ago, rcon14 said:

Genuinely curious if there has been a study conducted on this, particularly with athletic R1 EDGE guys? I know the bust rate on EDGE is high for non-athletes in R1, but I haven't seen anything for guys who had tested similar to Sweat/Burns/Bosa/Allen/etc.

Just do a study on GB edge picks.

 

Other teams have better success. My concern is all the reaches in the past.

No spot has more bust for GB than edge and DL. By far. Some of that is reaching and some being stuck at the bottom of round one. But at least in edge, it's grabbing questionable guys or fits like Perry and Datone.

Also, GB does like to grab "football players". The argument that they draft best is that GB has more draftees in the league than any team despite picking low. We do a pretty good job at almost all positions (except fit) outside DL and edge. That is correctable and maybe our new hire for head of scouting will help us there, since the Ravens have always done well at these positions (while being the worst at drafting and developing WRs).

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2 minutes ago, JaireAlex said:

Just do a study on GB edge picks.

 

Other teams have better success. My concern is all the reaches in the past.

No spot has more bust for GB than edge and DL. By far. Some of that is reaching and some being stuck at the bottom of round one. But at least in edge, it's grabbing questionable guys or fits like Perry and Datone.

Also, GB does like to grab "football players". The argument that they draft best is that GB has more draftees in the league than any team despite picking low. We do a pretty good job at almost all positions (except fit) outside DL and edge. That is correctable and maybe our new hire for head of scouting will help us there, since the Ravens have always done well at these positions (while being the worst at drafting and developing WRs).

Nick Perry was good until his body fell apart. Datone Jones wasn't even an EDGE. Vince Biegel's foot injuries ruined his career.

Expand it to DL. Justin Harrell's career ended by an injury. BJ Raji just retired but was good for quite a few years. Mike Daniels has been a stud. Kenny Clark is a stud.

Of course there are misses, but it's not like GB has been bad at drafting at these positions, especially given their draft position for much of the past decade.

Idk what you even mean by "football players." A person who plays football is by definition a football player. GB likes to draft athletes at DL and EDGE. The only non-athletes they've drafted int the past 15 years at those spots were Kyler Fackrell and BJ Raji (a pure NT).

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45 minutes ago, JaireAlex said:

We won the Superbowl with a 6th rounder (IR'd), a UDFA and a street guy (both injured) as our number two OLB -- and CMIII. We have five edge going into this year, strongest since Peppers. 

To contrast we have THREE DL with contracts next year. It's the deepest class ever. And everyone can be upgraded. Daniels is likely not back. Not to mention we lost Mo Wilkerson and can save loads of money with better rookies. It's about money too. I think only Clark is back. That would set up our cap very well for three years.

So, I see you wanting a  luxury pick when we have easy pickings on a spot we never get shots at and a position of great need in 2020. And it takes a year or two to get them playing well.

Finally, edge are the riskiest picks. There isn't one who isn't moderately to high risk in this draft except a few try hard types. My big take here. While not opposed at all to grabbing an edge, we can get more pressure from DL in this draft 

And I would draft Watt this year at 12 over anyone. I thought that was a huge mistake at the time and am skeptical of the "meds" issue.....though clearly a lot of teams passed on him for that, so I guess it was ok. But these prospects are not Watt. I have little confidence in any of the top guys. Much rather get safer prospects at other positions, which GB likes to grab when they are given the option.

You sound like Arrigo (I'm hearing from my sources it's the deepest DL class ever--stay tuned). 

It's not the deepest class ever, and it's not even a particularly saturated class. There's a few quality prospects here and there, but the talent is at EDGE. 

You sound like someone who has been following the NFL for 17 months (give or take a few). 

There's multiple classes in the last 10 years that had better DL groups--You only have to go back to the 2016 Draft to demonstrate that fact.

I just can't live in opposite world with you when you post It's the deepest class ever 5+ times in the last week. If you say it once I can ignore that, but I can't deal with the constant misinformation.  

Edited by Cadmus
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2 minutes ago, rcon14 said:

Nick Perry was good until his body fell apart. Datone Jones wasn't even an EDGE. Vince Biegel's foot injuries ruined his career.

Expand it to DL. Justin Harrell's career ended by an injury. BJ Raji just retired but was good for quite a few years. Mike Daniels has been a stud. Kenny Clark is a stud.

Of course there are misses, but it's not like GB has been bad at drafting at these positions, especially given their draft position for much of the past decade.

Idk what you even mean by "football players." A person who plays football is by definition a football player. GB likes to draft athletes at DL and EDGE. The only non-athletes they've drafted int the past 15 years at those spots were Kyler Fackrell and BJ Raji (a pure NT).

If you don't know what GB means by "football players" for the draft the last ten years, I can't help you.

 

If you think heart and locker room character aren't huge on GBs boards, I have nothing to say. Why a guy like Joe Jackson is going to be higher on GBs board than others. Why also they live Isabella who fails a couple check boxes

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1 minute ago, JaireAlex said:

If you don't know what GB means by "football players" for the draft the last ten years, I can't help you.

 

If you think heart and locker room character aren't huge on GBs boards, I have nothing to say. Why a guy like Joe Jackson is going to be higher on GBs board than others. Why also they live Isabella who fails a couple check boxes

So "football players" now means "character guys?" Then just say character, don't use a weird cliche that doesn't actually say anything.

I think there's no doubt that especially with Gute character is of high priority, but it hasn't always been that way. GB took plenty of chances on guys. With Gute, however, I do think it's fair to toss character question guys off the board because it seems like that's what GB is doing.

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3 minutes ago, Cadmus said:

You sound like Arrigo (I'm hearing from my sources it's the deepest DL class ever--stay tuned). 

It's not the deepest class ever, and it's not even a particularly saturated class. There's a few quality prospects here and there, but the talent is at EDGE. 

You sound like someone who has been following the NFL for 17 months (give or take a few). 

There's multiple classes in the last 10 years that had better DL groups--You only have to go back to the 2016 Draft to prove my point. 

the middle part of this IDL class is pretty soft IMO outside of Wren and Saunders. The top is great with Williams and Oliver and then scheme fit comes in for the next group of guys (Tillery, Wilkins, Lawrence), but I don't think the group as a whole is anything super special and day 3 is kind of a wasteland.

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