***Spoiler FREE*** Star Wars: The Rise of Skywalker

[JonStark]

10 minutes ago, Calvert28 said:

He drew out his lightsaber. That is an act. He ignited it. That is an act. He brought it up to swing down at an innocent child. That is an act. Just because he stopped himself doesnt mean what he was doing wasnt any less vile. 

What you people fail to realize is that there is a difference between an act and a thought. 

There are many people who are obsessed with murder, who post about it, who talk about. But you know who gets the police called on them? The one who buys assault weapons and calls the school telling them they want recreate Columbine. Why? Because the act is putting the thought into motion. 

You dont govern thought, nor do you kill people over it. What kind of **** logic is that? And you sure as hell dont just say well it was a moment of weakness. 

 

You literally say the act to kill a child: 

1 hour ago, Calvert28 said:

The act to kill a child who has never committed a crime would be considered by any rational person a psychotic breakdown.

That act did not occur. It was only a thought until the killing actually took place. I agree with everything you said on the act vs thought part, but feel like it works better with my argument better than yours. 

You're comparing what Luke did to any person killing someone. If you had powers that you were 100% confident in that told you that kid would go on to be the equivalent or evil that Luke saw Ben being in our world, the thought would absolutely cross your mind. With Luke being impulsive as he always has been, it's not unreasonable for him to act the way he did.

I think you're exaggerating what we are saying about Luke (or at least what I'm saying). I'm not saying he's this arrogant and shortsided mess of a character. He's a great character who has one flaw, which is his impulsiveness. All characters (and people for your real life comparison) have flaws. That's his, and it can't be denied after watching him in the OT. 

[MacReady]

Just now, Calvert28 said:

He didnt see into anyone's future. He saw Ben's thoughts. That is all. Also we push real world morals into movies all the time. Like murdering children is bad. 

He saw Leia and Han in clouds into the future in Empire Strikes Back, which clearly shows he has the gift of foresight.  So again you, not us, are neglecting the original trilogy. 

Murdering children is so terribly evil, right?  You just said Luke did what Obi Wan could not in the prequel trilogy.  Obi Wan couldn't do that because Anakin had literally murdered a dozen children, and yet an impulse to do that is worse?

You need to quit with the lies and misdirection about this scene. 

FACTS:

1. Luke had sensed evil brewing in Ben.
2. Luke looked into his heart and saw that Ben HAD ALREADY BEEN COMPROMISED, that "Snoke had ALREADY turned his heart."
3. He saw a future where Ben would bring DESTRUCTION, PAIN AND DEATH and the end of "everything I love" because of what he WILL become, not MIGHT become.  We've already established Luke has the gift of foresight.  That is canonical with the original trilogy.
4. "Briefest moment of PURE INSTINCT," which Luke HAS ALWAYS HAD PROBLEMS WITH.

5. Then, he draws his lightsaber and looks at his lightsaber, NOT at Ben.  He is not a second away from killing Ben, it is all speculation while he looks at his lightsaber.  He did not draw the lightsaber at Ben's throat, he started it and looked at it in consideration. 

You constantly, constantly, constantly, constantly constantly, constantly, constantly, constantly constantly, constantly, constantly, constantly constantly, constantly, constantly, constantly constantly, constantly, constantly, constantly lie and misinterpret the scene because you had your feelings hurt over a character who did everything his character had been made to be in the original trilogy.  

Get.  Over.  It.  You're wrong. 

@Calvert28, answer this question.  No ifs, ands, butts or drivel.  If Luke looked into Ben and saw Adolf Hitler, would it be against character for him to consider ending it then and there for the amount of time it showed him considering it? 

The question once again (yes or no): If Luke looked into Ben and saw Adolf Hitler, would it be against character for him to consider ending it then and there for the amount of time it showed him considering it? 

 

[sunnygsm]

This argument is still going I see. 

[MacReady]

Just now, sunnygsm said:

This argument is still going I see. 

I am trying to save people from their own misguided and self-inflicted hatred for something they should be loving.  It literally hurts to see people who love Star Wars as much as I do to see TLJ as a blemish when it should be right up there in top 3 Star Wars movies.

[sunnygsm]

5 minutes ago, Outpost31 said:

I am trying to save people from their own misguided and self-inflicted hatred for something they should be loving.  It literally hurts to see people who love Star Wars as much as I do to see TLJ as a blemish when it should be right up there in top 3 Star Wars movies.

People have different opinions though. When things are subjective, you'll never be able to convince people in that way. 

[Calvert28]

I'll respond to these poor quotes later when I'm not working a 12 hour shift but just thought of these 2 characters and thought their images were appropriate.

Rian Johnson supporters reacting to a peculiar child. Seems rational.

 

Reaction of every other level headed person in world. Is rational. 

 

Edited April 19, 2019 by Calvert28

[MacReady]

Just now, sunnygsm said:

People have different opinions though. When things are subjective, you'll never be able to convince people in that way. 

I disagree.  Conversations about movies have changed my mind on a good number of movies.  There are movies that I have absolutely loved that I've gone to dislike and movies I've hated that I have since grown to love based solely on conversations about the movies. 

The Dark Knight almost eclipsed The Thing as my favorite movie way back.  Then people pointed out the absurdity of the ferry scene and I cooled down on it. 

I'm trying to think of a reverse example where conversation on a movie led me to love it.  The Fifth Element probably is the best example. 

[MacReady]

Just now, Calvert28 said:

I'll respond to these poor quotes later when I'm not working a 12 hour shift but just thought of these 2 characters and thought their images were appropriate.

You are so helplessly hellbent on not seeing any reason whatsoever.  Luke is LITERALLY screaming at Ben to wait right there.  I don't think that's what you're going for in the image though, and I think I misinterpreted what you're trying to say. 

But basically, you deserve your self-inflicted hatred of Star Wars.  Your stubbornness is keeping you from enjoying a movie that you should enjoy, and that is 100% on you and guess what... You're the only one who suffers because of it.  I'm here loving TLJ getting more beloved Star Wars while you're there pouting about it being incapable of enjoying it. 

[sunnygsm]

2 minutes ago, Outpost31 said:

I disagree.  Conversations about movies have changed my mind on a good number of movies.  There are movies that I have absolutely loved that I've gone to dislike and movies I've hated that I have since grown to love based solely on conversations about the movies. 

The Dark Knight almost eclipsed The Thing as my favorite movie way back.  Then people pointed out the absurdity of the ferry scene and I cooled down on it. 

I'm trying to think of a reverse example where conversation on a movie led me to love it.  The Fifth Element probably is the best example. 

To an extent. The issue with this topic is that there is no right answer. All the arguments are based on some assumption/interpretation about the character. I already know that the follow up to this is "subverting expectations and breaking your previous assumptions".

The main point is that, for some people, RJ's characterisation is viewed more as an inconsistency that is not sufficiently supported by whatever else is in the story. 

 

[Mox]

34 minutes ago, Outpost31 said:

I am trying to save people from their own misguided and self-inflicted hatred for something they should be loving.  It literally hurts to see people who love Star Wars as much as I do to see TLJ as a blemish when it should be right up there in top 3 Star Wars movies.

Sure some people have problems with Luke but most people have problems with the garbage, nonsensical writing of the story.

Edited April 19, 2019 by Bullet Club

[Deadpulse]

I know I was apart of these, but can we flex into how TLJ and our likes and dislikes might translate into TRoS?

[sunnygsm]

I'm just curious with what they'll do with the story. I'm not sure what direction things are going after the last one. It could be very boring and become good vs bad with a side of redemption. Like I said earlier, it doesn't feel like the end of a trilogy. 

[Calvert28]

8 hours ago, JonStark said:

You literally say the act to kill a child: 

Yes and he was in the act and stopped himself. But he still went through the steps to end his life.

8 hours ago, JonStark said:

That act did not occur. It was only a thought until the killing actually took place. I agree with everything you said on the act vs thought part, but feel like it works better with my argument better than yours. 

Well of course you do lol. But if someone is trying to commit murder. Then it's still attempting murder. H/e fantasizing about it is not a crime.

8 hours ago, JonStark said:

You're comparing what Luke did to any person killing someone. If you had powers that you were 100% confident in that told you that kid would go on to be the equivalent or evil that Luke saw Ben being in our world, the thought would absolutely cross your mind. With Luke being impulsive as he always has been, it's not unreasonable for him to act the way he did.

Oh hell I don't need to see into the future of someone just to fantasize strangling them to death because they did something to wrong me or someone I know. But that's where it stopped. I didn't put anything on paper. I didn't drive to their house and wait in the bushes like an axe murderer. It was a thought process. The reason why its unreasonable is because of the circumstance. Ben at that point had not done anything which is why its such a ridiculous reaction. How do you think to punish or stop someone who has not done anything yet. Ben didn't kill anyone yet. He didn't slaughter a bunch of children or massacre a room full of senators, or assassinate someone he was just having turmoil within lhimself. The whole point to ROTJ was that Luke proved everyone wrong and not take the most obvious course of action and that was to eliminate the threat of Vader and the Emperor. Not only did it contradict the person he became at the end of the movie but that reaction goes way beyond impulsive. You guys have basically reduced Luke to someone who is criminally insane because you don't want to admit your wrong. That was a psychotic reaction more then anything. That is more so the reaction of the crazed mother drowning her kids in the bath tub because they didn't say their prayers and she wanted to save their souls.

 

[D82]

I'm curious to see how they bring Lando back into this...also feel like Leia dies.

[Calvert28]

9 hours ago, Outpost31 said:

He saw Leia and Han in clouds into the future in Empire Strikes Back, which clearly shows he has the gift of foresight.  So again you, not us, are neglecting the original trilogy. 

Didn't neglect anything because this had nothing to do with the discussion. He didn't peer into Ben's future, just his thoughts.

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Murdering children is so terribly evil, right?  You just said Luke did what Obi Wan could not in the prequel trilogy.  Obi Wan couldn't do that because Anakin had literally murdered a dozen children, and yet an impulse to do that is worse?

Both times it was wrong, as I clearly pointed out to you. It gave rise to a far greater evil that reshaped the Galaxy. Rian Johnson basically retold the lynch pin scenario of Episode 3 and how the Empire came about. He basically used Lucas's same idea to show that the Jedi destroyed themselves by giving into their impulse to kill the person instead of trying to reason with them. You claim it was so original but it really wasn't, Luke committed the same mistake Obi-Wan and Yoda did all those years ago and the reason why it was so effing dumb is it was he that proved them wrong with perseverance and conviction that saved Anakin. That is poor story telling.

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You need to quit with the lies and misdirection about this scene. 

Only in your mind, my very young apprentice

Quote

FACTS:

1. Luke had sensed evil brewing in Ben.
2. Luke looked into his heart and saw that Ben HAD ALREADY BEEN COMPROMISED, that "Snoke had ALREADY turned his heart."
3. He saw a future where Ben would bring DESTRUCTION, PAIN AND DEATH and the end of "everything I love" because of what he WILL become, not MIGHT become.  We've already established Luke has the gift of foresight.  That is canonical with the original trilogy.
4. "Briefest moment of PURE INSTINCT," which Luke HAS ALWAYS HAD PROBLEMS WITH.

5. Then, he draws his lightsaber and looks at his lightsaber, NOT at Ben.  He is not a second away from killing Ben, it is all speculation while he looks at his lightsaber.  He did not draw the lightsaber at Ben's throat, he started it and looked at it in consideration. 

 

1. True

2. False. Again this entire scene contradicts the main message of Episode 6. Do I really have to explain this one again? Lucas's version is the only one that matters here so lets not bring up what Rian was trying to do.

Quote

You constantly, constantly, constantly, constantly constantly, constantly, constantly, constantly constantly, constantly, constantly, constantly constantly, constantly, constantly, constantly constantly, constantly, constantly, constantly lie and misinterpret the scene because you had your feelings hurt over a character who did everything his character had been made to be in the original trilogy. 

Get.  Over.  It.  You're wrong.

Lmao I have not lied once. I have addressed every quote you have put up thus far. I just wanted the character to actually be Luke Skywalker which it wasn't as commented on by Hamill himself before Disney I can only assume threatened his life or something.

His character was brash, impulsive, headstrong, he was all that and more.......up until the throne room scene in ROTJ which was his awakening to becoming someone entirely new. Something you and others have constantly ignored and said, oh no he's the same as he's always been which even Lucas himself will tell you, you are wrong.

 

Quote

, answer this question.  No ifs, ands, butts or drivel.  If Luke looked into Ben and saw Adolf Hitler, would it be against character for him to consider ending it then and there for the amount of time it showed him considering it? 

 

Mmmk let me ask you a question or two since you continue to ignore the point of Episode 6. If saw in your immediate future that you were going to kill someone in cold blood. Would that give me the right to kill you? Or could I just prevent the situation by trying to talk to you or keep an eye on you to make sure you weren't going to do something "psychotic"?

 

Edited April 20, 2019 by Calvert28