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Vikings extend WR Adam Thielen (4 years, $64M)

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The Vikings are giving Cousins, Thielen, and Diggs a good chunk of their bread right? Is it true Zimmer wants to run the ball more next year?

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14 hours ago, Xenos said:

Thielen is a slot guy as much as Keenan Allen is just a slot guy.

Anybody who is not 6'2"+ every football fan thinks is a slot WR. There are still Broncos fans who think Emmanuel Sanders can simply be slid into the slot because hes 5'11" They have been trying to make him a slot WR for the past 3 years until he catches two 35+ yard diving bombs down the sideline every game.

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On 4/13/2019 at 9:49 PM, Incarcerated_Scarface said:

What I don't understand is why don't most teams use this tactic? Someone educate me on this please.

They do. Basically every major contract is going to include a signing bonus in it, and they often start year 1 with a low base salary. There's nothing special about what is suggested in that quote. If you browse around you'll find plenty of contracts and extensions with very small first year salaries. The signing bonus ensures the player gets paid that year, the small salary lessens the initial cap blow for the team.

But the core thing to know is that money is going to come out of the cap regardless. It's really just a question of when it is getting charged from a cap perspective. If you lower his base to $1M to pad his signing bonus, that signing bonus is spread out in terms of cap hit over the course of the contract, so you're just paying the money you saved over 4 years instead of one. If you lower the year one base to $1M to shift it into later salaries, same deal. It isn't just them paying Thielen less, though, just structuring the cap hit differently. On one hand it's easier to take the hit spread out, on the other you're taking savings today in exchange for less cap space down the road. Do it too much and you can get the cap hell that the Mickey Loomis had the Saints in awhile back, or the dead money situation that Miami is facing right now.

But teams definitely do it. Alshon Jeffrey's contract was structured that way. It's why his first year cap hit when he was extended was like $4M, which then skyrocketed to $14M this year. Similar structure for Sammy Watkins, jumping from $8M cap hit in year one to $20M this year. A great example of how this gets risky would be Cameron Heyward's contract with the Steelers. Twice they've actually converted his salary to bonus, saving cap in the year they did it at the cost of raising his cap hit late in his deal. His cap hit literally doubled this year because of it (and the Steelers did this with....a LOT of players last year.) An arguably smarter example would be the Rams with Aaron Donald. They were able to make so many of the moves they did last year because his base salary was less than $1M, and his cap hit was $9M despite the huge contract. It didn't get them a super bowl, but it helped get them very close. Though again, they pay for it now and in the coming years with his cap hit more than doubling, and soon practically tripling.

The key thing to know really is that the teams are never actually saving cap space with these contract structures or restructures. They're just moving it around. Unless they literally pay the player less money, their total cap hit over the course of the contract isn't changing. Except for cuts/trades/retirements, obviously.

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On ‎4‎/‎12‎/‎2019 at 7:55 PM, vike daddy said:

 

great hands, great body control. and a very humble guy.

make sure you look at the catch starting at 3:07.

 

And if you're a packer fan take a look at the catch at :35 if you want to be mad. So glad Kentrell Brice is gone. I think the guy is supposed to play the ball there but instead he chose to not do that and take his own guy out.

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12 hours ago, Malik said:

They're the same caliber player just vastly different playstyles.

Except that Cousins goes for 25 plus touchdowns and 4000 yards a like it's going out of style. Smith has done that once in his career.

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9 hours ago, PapaShogun said:

The Vikings are giving Cousins, Thielen, and Diggs a good chunk of their bread right? Is it true Zimmer wants to run the ball more next year?

Definitely wants it to be more balanced than it was under DeFilippo.

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8 minutes ago, TENINCH said:

Definitely wants it to be more balanced than it was under DeFilippo.

The draft strategy will be telling. If a big investment is made to build up the OL, I'll believe it. 

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On 4/14/2019 at 8:02 AM, SteelKing728 said:

Okay. Jared Goff choked in the Superbowl this past year. Is he no good then?

Peyton Manning, though far superior to Cousins and Goff, was considered a choker for a long time too.

Edit: I don't want to get this thread any further derailed. I'm glad Thielen got his money and I hope he retires as a Viking.

I watched the Cowboys playoff game vs the Rams and kept wondering why they never switched to 5 Dlineman with heavier guys inside.   You at least make Goff make plays.  Pats came out like that from the start.

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7 hours ago, Arthur Penske said:

And if you're a packer fan take a look at the catch at :35 if you want to be mad. So glad Kentrell Brice is gone. I think the guy is supposed to play the ball there but instead he chose to not do that and take his own guy out.

I saw him quite a bit when looking at Dix after Bears picked him up.  You are right he (Brice) was beyond awful.  Wish you still had him.

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15 hours ago, Jakuvious said:

They do. Basically every major contract is going to include a signing bonus in it, and they often start year 1 with a low base salary. There's nothing special about what is suggested in that quote. If you browse around you'll find plenty of contracts and extensions with very small first year salaries. The signing bonus ensures the player gets paid that year, the small salary lessens the initial cap blow for the team.

But the core thing to know is that money is going to come out of the cap regardless. It's really just a question of when it is getting charged from a cap perspective. If you lower his base to $1M to pad his signing bonus, that signing bonus is spread out in terms of cap hit over the course of the contract, so you're just paying the money you saved over 4 years instead of one. If you lower the year one base to $1M to shift it into later salaries, same deal. It isn't just them paying Thielen less, though, just structuring the cap hit differently. On one hand it's easier to take the hit spread out, on the other you're taking savings today in exchange for less cap space down the road. Do it too much and you can get the cap hell that the Mickey Loomis had the Saints in awhile back, or the dead money situation that Miami is facing right now.

But teams definitely do it. Alshon Jeffrey's contract was structured that way. It's why his first year cap hit when he was extended was like $4M, which then skyrocketed to $14M this year. Similar structure for Sammy Watkins, jumping from $8M cap hit in year one to $20M this year. A great example of how this gets risky would be Cameron Heyward's contract with the Steelers. Twice they've actually converted his salary to bonus, saving cap in the year they did it at the cost of raising his cap hit late in his deal. His cap hit literally doubled this year because of it (and the Steelers did this with....a LOT of players last year.) An arguably smarter example would be the Rams with Aaron Donald. They were able to make so many of the moves they did last year because his base salary was less than $1M, and his cap hit was $9M despite the huge contract. It didn't get them a super bowl, but it helped get them very close. Though again, they pay for it now and in the coming years with his cap hit more than doubling, and soon practically tripling.

The key thing to know really is that the teams are never actually saving cap space with these contract structures or restructures. They're just moving it around. Unless they literally pay the player less money, their total cap hit over the course of the contract isn't changing. Except for cuts/trades/retirements, obviously.

Great job of explaining this. Obviously, the best way to manage the cap is to frontload a lot of contracts so that you do no have to worry about things down the line. But that's not always realistic either.

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The Vikings have waaay more money tied up long term in 7 figure annual contracts than any other team. They have easily the most money in active contracts in 2020: https://www.spotrac.com/nfl/cap/2020/ (sort by "Active") and 2021: https://www.spotrac.com/nfl/cap/2021/ and 2022: https://www.spotrac.com/nfl/cap/2022/. They have $113M ofcap allocated for 2022 whereas the Seahawks have $5M xD

Not saying that's particularly bad or good. But, it's notable for sure. There core is pretty much going to be this plus any major draft hits for the foreseeable future. 

Edited by wackywabbit

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2 hours ago, wackywabbit said:

The Vikings have waaay more money tied up long term in 7 figure annual contracts than any other team. They have easily the most money in active contracts in 2020: https://www.spotrac.com/nfl/cap/2020/ (sort by "Active") and 2021: https://www.spotrac.com/nfl/cap/2021/ and 2022: https://www.spotrac.com/nfl/cap/2022/. They have $113M ofcap allocated for 2022 whereas the Seahawks have $5M xD

Not saying that's particularly bad or good. But, it's notable for sure. There core is pretty much going to be this plus any major draft hits for the foreseeable future. 

It's definitely the cap structure of a team that expects it's core to be winning a superbowl very soon, IMO.

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Adam Thielen's story has been told and re-told too many times to repeat, but it’s still amazing. The undrafted free agent just got a shot. And as he looks back, he understands how fragile that can be.

Thielen: “And now when I look back I kind of get nervous because I know that if I wouldn’t have done this right, or if I would’ve been late to this, or if I would’ve, you know, ran the wrong route I might have not ever gotten the chance. It’s just extremely special for me to be in this state that’s done so much for me, and to be here for a long time, and know I’m going to be here for a long time and my family, the place where we have a house, the place that we love.” 

https://minnesota.cbslocal.com/2019/04/16/were-very-blessed-vikings-adam-thielen-talks-new-64m-contract/?fbclid=IwAR11F-mSL6r3Az7WKm7Ypy5pXMvOaFhX1LYJs2htjaj0qGGKO1Bj1eOHsZg

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