Carson Wentz... or this haul?

[y2lamanaki]

2 minutes ago, y2lamanaki said:

 So you're telling me that if Wentz turns out to be a Dak Prescott/Jameis Winston caliber of QB, it's somehow a bad trade?

Just to nitpick, if Wentz turns out only to be a Dak Prescott caliber of QB, it's a horrible trade, because both were in the same draft class. It just showcases how much the Eagles wasted picks to try and find a QB. 

[CWood21]

16 minutes ago, y2lamanaki said:

But the Bears didn't give up nearly as much as the Eagles did. And are you putting a gamble on Blake Bortles, RG3, Jake Locker, or any of the other high-drafted QB flameout? That's part of the gamble. I mean look how weak the Redskins roster was WITH Cousins because of the RG3 move. They just happened to luck into a quality guy later, and most thought the Redskins were crazy to trade that much and then hedge their bets with a second QB. That kind of move takes years to recover from, even when you hit on it successfully. The Falcons made that big move up for Julio Jones, and while it worked, they suffered through some poor seasons recently thanks to the lack of incoming talent teams bring in yearly. In that time, other players might leave, older guys might retire, the QB may struggle with a weaker team, and before you know it, you're back at square one after having wasted five years of time. To me, the payoff isn't worth it unless you know you're getting a top 10 QB. That might seem arbitrary to you, but to me it means your QB is better than 2/3 of the league for the next 12-15 years, and you just need to get him surrounded with talent. If Wentz ends up being a top 10 QB - sure, not so bad a move. They'll have recovered early enough and can build a Super Bowl contending team around him. If he's middle of the pack, and being compared with guys other teams found in the 3rd, or 4th rounds, I don't think that is proof of a good trade. I think it means the team likely could have held onto their picks and did something better, even if it means surrounding a flawed 2nd round prospect with great talent. 

The Bears went from 3 to 2, where as the Eagles went from 13 to 2.  That's a HUGE difference.  I mean, that the Eagles trading the 7th and 13th pick of that draft to move up to second strictly in terms of the trade value chart.  Where as the difference between the 2nd and 3rd pick is a mid-2nd round pick.  And that doesn't include the fact that you have to devalue future picks, and the uptick in cost when you're dealing with a franchise QB.  In terms of value, the Eagles didn't really get cleaned out like the 'Skins did when they traded up for RG3.  The problem is that it really lacks your mobility in future drafts when you give that significant package.

[CWood21]

18 minutes ago, y2lamanaki said:

Just to nitpick, if Wentz turns out only to be a Dak Prescott caliber of QB, it's a horrible trade, because both were in the same draft class. It just showcases how much the Eagles wasted picks to try and find a QB. 

I'm still struggling to wrap my head around this concept.  You're going to somehow discredit the move simply because the Cowboys managed to evaluate and develop a QB later in the draft?  Are we sure that Dak Prescott has that same level of success in Philadelphia?

[EaglesPeteC]

2 minutes ago, CWood21 said:

The Bears went from 3 to 2, where as the Eagles went from 13 to 2.  That's a HUGE difference.  I mean, that the Eagles trading the 7th and 13th pick of that draft to move up to second strictly in terms of the trade value chart.  Where as the difference between the 2nd and 3rd pick is a mid-2nd round pick.  And that doesn't include the fact that you have to devalue future picks, and the uptick in cost when you're dealing with a franchise QB.  In terms of value, the Eagles didn't really get cleaned out like the 'Skins did when they traded up for RG3.  The problem is that it really lacks your mobility in future drafts when you give that significant package.

It was a separate trade, but you cannot discount that the Eagles were able to recoup a 1st and 4th for trading Bradford. That really softened the blow.

 

 

[y2lamanaki]

10 minutes ago, CWood21 said:

The Bears went from 3 to 2, where as the Eagles went from 13 to 2.  That's a HUGE difference.  I mean, that the Eagles trading the 7th and 13th pick of that draft to move up to second strictly in terms of the trade value chart.  Where as the difference between the 2nd and 3rd pick is a mid-2nd round pick.  And that doesn't include the fact that you have to devalue future picks, and the uptick in cost when you're dealing with a franchise QB.  In terms of value, the Eagles didn't really get cleaned out like the 'Skins did when they traded up for RG3.  The problem is that it really lacks your mobility in future drafts when you give that significant package.

Oh I know the difference - that's why I'm okay with the Bears trade (even though it was unneeded as we were taking Solomon Thomas at #2). That sort of trade - no big deal. The Eagles and Rams trades? Never would I want it for those prospects. 

[y2lamanaki]

57 minutes ago, CWood21 said:

So you're telling me that if Wentz turns out to be a Dak Prescott/Jameis Winston caliber of QB, it's somehow a bad trade?

 

10 minutes ago, CWood21 said:

I'm still struggling to wrap my head around this concept.  You're going to somehow discredit the move simply because the Cowboys managed to evaluate and develop a QB later in the draft?  Are we sure that Dak Prescott has that same level of success in Philadelphia?

I'm pointing out how you framed the question. Paraphrasing: "If Wentz turns out to be as good as the guy taken 133 picks after him, is it a bad trade?" Then yes. Yes it is. Because in order for someone to "turn out" to be someone, it's implying that they are not yet that someone, which implies that after one year, you'd already consider Prescott to be better. And since that someone required no trade and could have been had 133 picks later, then to me, yes, it showcases how bad of a trade it was.

[y2lamanaki]

1 minute ago, y2lamanaki said:

 

I'm pointing out how you framed the question. Paraphrasing: "If Wentz turns out to be as good as the guy taken 133 picks after him, is it a bad trade?" Then yes. Yes it is. Because in order for someone to "turn out" to be someone, it's implying that they are not yet that someone, which implies that after one year, you'd already consider Prescott to be better. And since that someone required no trade and could have been had 133 picks later, then to me, yes, it showcases how bad of a trade it was.

To put it another way - last year the 49ers made a trade up to pick #28 from pick #37. Not nearly as costly - only a 4th and a 6th. In the 49ers forum, many of us hated that trade because it was for Joshua Garnett (G), a guy that might have been available where we were at #37 anyway. But that wasn't the worst part - if you like a guy, going up and getting him for a 4th and 6th isn't the worst thing in the world. The problem is many of us didn't believe Garnett was the prospect that guys like Nick Martin (#50) or Cody Whitehair (#56) were.

So to me, asking 'if Wentz turns out to be as good as Prescott, does that make it a bad trade?' is like asking "if Garnett turns out to be as good as Whitehair, does that make it a bad trade?" Because the answer to that is yes. For it to be a good trade, it needs to be for someone far and away better than someone else that could have been had without the trade. 

[AkronsWitness]

7 hours ago, Danger said:

For one he never impressed me in College. Two, Notre Dame Quarterbacks haven't had success in god knows how long. I have no reason to believe Kizer will fair any better playing QB for the Browns than the last 30 people they've had at the position.

Becasue all of the North Dakota State QBs running rampid in the NFL makes me believe Wentz is going to be a rockstar.

Truth is, Wentz didnt exactly light the world on fire in his rookie year. Trevor Siemian posted better 1st year numbers than Wentz so Im confused why people are acting like he is this established young franchise QB the way people view Carr.

He posted a lackluster 79 QBR wile throwing only 16 TDs and 14 INTs....Lets not act like Wentz is some monster prospect and overrate who he actually is based on his draft position.

[mistakey]

5 hours ago, CWood21 said:

I mean, if we're talking about players I'd consider franchise QBs (i.e. not actively looking to upgrade or really considering it), I'd include Tom Brady, Big Ben, Andrew Luck, Marcus Mariota, Derek Carr, Dak Prescott, Eli Manning, Kirk Cousins, Aaron Rodgers, Matt Ryan, Cam Newton, Drew Brees, Jameis Winston, and Russell Wilson.  That's 14 QBs that I'd label as franchise QBs that their franchise probably wouldn't move on from them for an unknown.  And that doesn't include the teams that have QBs they're invested in, but are still on the developmental curve.  So you're telling me that if Wentz turns out to be a Dak Prescott/Jameis Winston caliber of QB, it's somehow a bad trade?

i dunno but if wentz and kizer both turn out to be that caliber of QB AND we got a bunch more talent, i'd call the browns the definite winner but i don't think i'd call the eagles a loser.  I'd be a little bitter over what I had to give up to get him tho

[Iamcanadian]

3 hours ago, mistakey said:

i dunno but if wentz and kizer both turn out to be that caliber of QB AND we got a bunch more talent, i'd call the browns the definite winner but i don't think i'd call the eagles a loser.  I'd be a little bitter over what I had to give up to get him tho

There is no doubt that if Wentz and Kiser have the same rate of success, that Cleveland is then the real winner of the trade by a lot. The trouble is, Kizer only stands about a 6% chance of accomplishing that, but it is still possible, just cannot tell at this point??? IMO, he will not come close, but my opinion will not decide the issue, play on the field will, so we will have to wait to see how they both play during the season.

[Iamcanadian]

5 hours ago, AkronsWitness said:

Becasue all of the North Dakota State QBs running rampid in the NFL makes me believe Wentz is going to be a rockstar.

Truth is, Wentz didnt exactly light the world on fire in his rookie year. Trevor Siemian posted better 1st year numbers than Wentz so Im confused why people are acting like he is this established young franchise QB the way people view Carr.

He posted a lackluster 79 QBR wile throwing only 16 TDs and 14 INTs....Lets not act like Wentz is some monster prospect and overrate who he actually is based on his draft position.

This is a fair statement, but then you have to include the fact that Kizer hasn't even won a game yet and many Cleveland fans are assuming he will be a franchise QB based on absolutely nothing as of yet??? It is going to be decided on the field of play and not by my opinion or any wishful thinking on the part of many Cleveland fans. Just have to give it time and have some real facts to go by.

[Iamcanadian]

8 hours ago, y2lamanaki said:

Oh I know the difference - that's why I'm okay with the Bears trade (even though it was unneeded as we were taking Solomon Thomas at #2). That sort of trade - no big deal. The Eagles and Rams trades? Never would I want it for those prospects. 

And what makes you think that the 49ers didn't have other offers for that pick, in which case, Chicago cannot draft a QB they really believed in and wanted pretty badly. There is a reason teams trade up, they really believe in the player they trade up for and there is absolutely no guarantee he will be there when they pick. All you assumptions seemed to be based on the player might have been there anyways when they pick, but that is simply wishful thinking, based on nothing but assumptions???

[BAConrad]

Still trying  to wrap my brain around the fact that the Browns fans are even allowed to say Kizer is a "possible  franchise QB" in a way that makes him look just as promising as Wentz.

So stupid. 

 

By that standard, basically any QB drafted is a possible franchise QB then.  I mean teams draft QBs that they think have potential, just like Kizer. And Kizer looked basically about as bad as I expected.

 

 

He had an easy TD throw to Coleman in the RZ. Awesome.

 

 

Come see us when he's doing the kind of stuff Carson is doing in the pocket. His ability to shed pass rushers and his ability to extend plays when thinks break down in the pocket and make insane throws is basically something we don't see from QBs except for every 5 to 10 years. 

Kid is special. 

[BAConrad]

3 hours ago, Iamcanadian said:

And what makes you think that the 49ers didn't have other offers for that pick, in which case, Chicago cannot draft a QB they really believed in and wanted pretty badly. There is a reason teams trade up, they really believe in the player they trade up for and there is absolutely no guarantee he will be there when they pick. All you assumptions seemed to be based on the player might have been there anyways when they pick, but that is simply wishful thinking, based on nothing but assumptions???

Pretty sure Peter King was literally in the 49ers war room and he told someone, forget who, that Chicago was literally just outbidding itself.

 

 

[Tetsujin]

I voted for the haul because I think Kizer is legit.