Carson Wentz... or this haul?

[y2lamanaki]

4 hours ago, Iamcanadian said:

And what makes you think that the 49ers didn't have other offers for that pick, in which case, Chicago cannot draft a QB they really believed in and wanted pretty badly. There is a reason teams trade up, they really believe in the player they trade up for and there is absolutely no guarantee he will be there when they pick. All you assumptions seemed to be based on the player might have been there anyways when they pick, but that is simply wishful thinking, based on nothing but assumptions???

Interviews with John Lynch revealed that only the Bears had been willing to move up. They were ready to turn in the card for Solomon Thomas if the Bears decided they did not want to go through with the trade. 

[MWil23]

 

I personally think that if both teams could go back in time and remake this decision, that both teams do the exact same thing. The Browns roster was an absolute joke and had so many needs aside from the obvious QB spot, that they needed a LOT of contributors, starters, and potential impact players (along with future 1sts/2nds) and even backups, and the Eagles look like they got their Franchise QB.

The best trades are usually Win/Win. I don't really think it has to be one way or the other here. The Eagles really took a risk, but it looks like it paid off.

[Danger]

12 hours ago, AkronsWitness said:

He posted a lackluster 79 QBR wile throwing only 16 TDs and 14 INTs....Lets not act like Wentz is some monster prospect and overrate who he actually is based on his draft position.

With Lane Johnson (7 Games)
157/241 (65.14%) - 1711 Yards - 7.1 YPA - 12 TD - 3 INT - 97.4 Passer Rating

WITHOUT Lane Johnson (10 Games)
248/405 (61.2%) - 2378 Yards - 5.9 YPA - 6 TD - 12 INT - 70.2 Passer Rating

It was night and day. And against the Skins week 1 Carson has shown he can fair much better under pressure than he could last year. I saw the stats somewhere on ESPN for the breakdown. But last year Carson as a Rookie struggled when he was put up with a fairly poor and injured offensive line at times. 

[tyler735]

3 hours ago, BAConrad said:

Still trying  to wrap my brain around the fact that the Browns fans are even allowed to say Kizer is a "possible  franchise QB" in a way that makes him look just as promising as Wentz.

So stupid. 

 

By that standard, basically any QB drafted is a possible franchise QB then.  I mean teams draft QBs that they think have potential, just like Kizer. And Kizer looked basically about as bad as I expected.

 

 

He had an easy TD throw to Coleman in the RZ. Awesome.

 

 

Come see us when he's doing the kind of stuff Carson is doing in the pocket. His ability to shed pass rushers and his ability to extend plays when thinks break down in the pocket and make insane throws is basically something we don't see from QBs except for every 5 to 10 years. 

Kid is special. 

Holy those are some impressively green tinted glasses. 

If we are strictly speaking on improvising plays. Then there are several players that would have no problem doing similar things to what Carson Wentz has done improvising and making impressive throws down field. All of the guys on the list below could do similar to Wentz at the very least. Maybe a little different style to it instead of having a defender bounce off of them like Wentz they make defenders miss with their quickness (Wilson, Mariota, Prescott, Mahomes, Watson)

Extending plays/Throwing on the run-

Cam Newton

Andrew Luck

Russell Wilson

Marcus Mariota

Jameis Winston

Dak Prescott

Pat Mahomes

Deshaun Watson

[Danger]

3 minutes ago, tyler735 said:

Holy those are some impressively green tinted glasses. 

If we are strictly speaking on improvising plays. Then there are several players that would have no problem doing similar things to what Carson Wentz has done improvising and making impressive throws down field. All of the guys on the list below could do similar to Wentz at the very least. Maybe a little different style to it instead of having a defender bounce off of them like Wentz they make defenders miss with their quickness (Wilson, Mariota, Prescott, Mahomes, Watson)

Extending plays/Throwing on the run-

Cam Newton

Andrew Luck

Russell Wilson

Marcus Mariota

Jameis Winston

Dak Prescott

Pat Mahomes

Deshaun Watson

A bit too early to necessarily include the rookies, but you did forget Aaron Rodgers.

[tyler735]

11 minutes ago, Danger said:

A bit too early to necessarily include the rookies, but you did forget Aaron Rodgers.

Obviously Aaron Rodgers is better as well. I believe his original claim was that guys like Wentz only come along every 5-10 years, so I just included guys since 2011 that have shown skills that show they can improvise/make plays down field similarly to Wentz

Regarding the rookies. Mahomes had done this type of thing for years at Texas Tech. If we are strictly talking about extending plays/making impressive throws downfield. We already know Mahomes is very capable of doing it in the NFL. That said much like Wentz we don't know if that will make him a good QB in the NFL at this point.

 

[Danger]

2 minutes ago, tyler735 said:

Regarding the rookies. Mahomes had done this type of thing for years at Texas Tech. If we are strictly talking about extending plays/making impressive throws downfield. We already know Mahomes is very capable of doing it in the NFL.

That doesn't mean he is going to be able to necessarily do that in the NFL. Lets wait until he proves it. I mean hell, Texas Tech doesn't exactly play against any real prolific NCAA defenses that project what so ever to the NFL.

[Forge]

8 hours ago, Iamcanadian said:

And what makes you think that the 49ers didn't have other offers for that pick, in which case, Chicago cannot draft a QB they really believed in and wanted pretty badly. There is a reason teams trade up, they really believe in the player they trade up for and there is absolutely no guarantee he will be there when they pick. All you assumptions seemed to be based on the player might have been there anyways when they pick, but that is simply wishful thinking, based on nothing but assumptions???

I believe that it was pretty well documented by Peter King that there was no other interest in the #2 pick. Chicago was it. 

That being said, that's a deal I actually understand a little more than say the 49ers moving up to draft Garnett two years ago. Chicago didn't know that they were the only ones. 

[Danger]

I'm getting a gut feeling that Chicago might become the next.... dysfunctional franchise, like the Browns are and Raiders were for a number of years. Where no matter what they do they just get stuck in the gutter.

[tyler735]

31 minutes ago, Danger said:

That doesn't mean he is going to be able to necessarily do that in the NFL. Lets wait until he proves it. I mean hell, Texas Tech doesn't exactly play against any real prolific NCAA defenses that project what so ever to the NFL.

His preseason has already shown he can make these types of splash plays, we already know he's athletic and has a cannon for an arm. There's not much to wait on in this regard. We don't know how well he's going to be able to read defenses, digest an NFL playbook, and consistently make accurate throws into coverage, but those aren't things that we're really discussing. It was simply an ability ti scramble and make plays down field. I know Mahomes is very capable in that regard

[Danger]

Just now, tyler735 said:

His preseason has already shown he can make these types of splash plays, we already know he's athletic and has a cannon for an arm. There's not much to wait on in this regard. We don't know how well he's going to be able to read defenses, digest an NFL playbook, and consistently make accurate throws into coverage, but those aren't things that we're really discussing. It was simply an ability ti scramble and make plays down field. I know Mahomes is very capable in that regard

If there's anything I've learned over the years, it's that you can't put any stock in pre season performance, on an individual or team basis.

[Iamcanadian]

23 minutes ago, Danger said:

If there's anything I've learned over the years, it's that you can't put any stock in pre season performance, on an individual or team basis.

I fully agree, playing against second and third string players in exhibition games where he faces no pass rush, hardly equates to proof he can succeed in this league. Have to wait till he is truly tested in a game that really means something.

[tyler735]

52 minutes ago, Iamcanadian said:

I fully agree, playing against second and third string players in exhibition games where he faces no pass rush, hardly equates to proof he can succeed in this league. Have to wait till he is truly tested in a game that really means something.

Succeeding in this league doesn't equal being really good at scrambling and having the arm talent to make plays down field. Those are separate things, which I have pointed out numerous times now in this thread. A guy like RG3 even is a prime example of this. He even with the Browns last season was able to make some nice splash plays that showed that he is crazy athletic, and has some natural arm talent, to make some off schedule improvised plays, but simply wasn't all that good of a QB since he struggled with pocket awareness, and getting through reads. The original comment by Baconrad stated that Wentz was a once in 5-10 year guy in this aspect of being a QB. I have shown there are several others that can do similar in this ONE aspect which is only showcased a few times a game.

I've seen enough of Mahomes to know he can make those types of plays scrambling in the NFL. Wentz has also not shown he can succeed in this league as he is coming off of a season in which he had a QB Rating in the 70's which is among the worst in 2016 for all QB's. However like Mahomes, I do know Wentz has the talent to make those types of scrambling plays as he's athletic and has lots of natural arm talent. That said the jury is still out on whether he's a good QB as well. 

This is like saying you're not sure if Chris Johnson coming out of college is going to be able to outrun NFL defenses when he gets into the open field. We've already seen the explosiveness in college to know he has freakish speed. However we didn't know if he'd be a good RB as there are still other questions such as vision, size, etc. As I've stated, we've already seen that Mahomes is a good athlete for a QB, and we know he has a cannon. He will be able to make some splash plays because of this combo. This doesn't equal good QB as I stated before there are bigger questions such as digesting an NFL playbook, going through reads, consistent accuracy, etc. 

[CWood21]

21 hours ago, EaglesPeteC said:

It was a separate trade, but you cannot discount that the Eagles were able to recoup a 1st and 4th for trading Bradford. That really softened the blow.

I'd agree with this train of thought.  The trade up for Wentz allowed them to make the Bradford trade, so personally I'd include it as part of the equation.

[CWood21]

20 hours ago, y2lamanaki said:

I'm pointing out how you framed the question. Paraphrasing: "If Wentz turns out to be as good as the guy taken 133 picks after him, is it a bad trade?" Then yes. Yes it is. Because in order for someone to "turn out" to be someone, it's implying that they are not yet that someone, which implies that after one year, you'd already consider Prescott to be better. And since that someone required no trade and could have been had 133 picks later, then to me, yes, it showcases how bad of a trade it was.

I think you're misunderstanding what I'm trying to say.  If you draft a player 15th overall, and another team drafts a player at a similar position 115th overall and they both have HoF careers is the fact that you picked the players at 15th instead of 115th diminish the impact that player had?  No.