Carson Wentz... or this haul?

[EaglesPeteC]

A special glimpse into the Browns' War Room

 

[Thomas5737]

On 10/2/2017 at 9:31 AM, BAConrad said:

Oh and using hyperbole by saying things like me saying how the Eagles "are so terrible" is laughable since I only said that our WRs were crap last year, we didn't have any good corners or a run game. As if that means an entire 53 man team is terrible. lol 

You also said you had a crap offensive line. So besides the worst WR, a crap offensive line and no run game...you were pretty good offensively? You also claimed the worst corners in the league. Sounds like a pretty bad team to me. Certainly well below average if you have the worst receivers and corners in the league with a crap run game and a bad offensive line. I'm just trying to see the picture you are painting and I can't figure it out. Minus QB you are/were bottom 5 roster?

[tab]

On 10/1/2017 at 9:14 PM, EaglesPeteC said:

Remember that time after trading down instead of taking Carson Wentz, the Browns traded down instead of taking Deshaun Watson? Good times. 

we probably should include the picks the browns traded away too if we're gonna talk about the Browns Haul right? So instead of saying Carson Wentz or This Haul, we should be arguing

 

Corey Coleman
Shon Coleman
Deshone Kizer
Derrick Kindred
Jabrill Peppers
Like 5 back up guys
Texans 2018 1st Rnd Pick
Eagles 2018 2nd Rnd Pick

or

Carson Wentz
Connor Cook
Deshaun Watson
Daryl Worley
Jack Conklin

 

 

[Xmad]

3 minutes ago, tab said:

we probably should include the picks the browns traded away too if we're gonna talk about the Browns Haul right? So instead of saying Carson Wentz or This Haul, we should be arguing

 

Corey Coleman
Shon Coleman
Deshone Kizer
Derrick Kindred
Jabrill Peppers
Like 5 back up guys
Texans 2018 1st Rnd Pick
Eagles 2018 2nd Rnd Pick

or

Carson Wentz
Connor Cook
Deshaun Watson
Daryl Worley
Jack Conklin

 

 

You might as well add the entire draft after the picks as well then. 

[tab]

6 minutes ago, OleXmad said:

You might as well add the entire draft after the picks as well then. 

im only putting the names that are on the graphic in the OP

 

Just saying though, it's not like the Browns traded Wentz for a dozen picks, they passed on him and by that logic, we should probably include the other players they passed on too to end up with the guys they got

[Iamcanadian]

If you follow the logic of the Browns passing on Wentz because the team stinks, then Indy would have passed on Peyton and Luck, Tennessee would have passed on Mariota, Tampa Bay would have passed on Winston, The Giants would have passed on Eli, Atlanta would have passed on Ryan, Carolina would have passed on Newton, Detroit would have passed on Stafford, the Rams would have passed on Goff and on and on and on. These teams stunk, which is why they got the opportunity to draft a franchise QB with a high pick.

I repeat, only Miami in recent memory has passed on a potential franchise QB, when they decided to pass on Ryan and how has that turned out for them??? Cleveland's Owner/FO is playing a very dangerous game, suggesting to me, that they simply do not have a clue on how to rebuild a franchise and we could still be have this conversation about the Browns in 2027 or later.

[Xmad]

16 minutes ago, Iamcanadian said:

If you follow the logic of the Browns passing on Wentz because the team stinks, then Indy would have passed on Peyton and Luck, Tennessee would have passed on Mariota, Tampa Bay would have passed on Winston, The Giants would have passed on Eli, Atlanta would have passed on Ryan, Carolina would have passed on Newton, Detroit would have passed on Stafford, the Rams would have passed on Goff and on and on and on. These teams stunk, which is why they got the opportunity to draft a franchise QB with a high pick.

I repeat, only Miami in recent memory has passed on a potential franchise QB, when they decided to pass on Ryan and how has that turned out for them??? Cleveland's Owner/FO is playing a very dangerous game, suggesting to me, that they simply do not have a clue on how to rebuild a franchise and we could still be have this conversation about the Browns in 2027 or later.

Several teams have passed on franchise QBs...Cleveland more than twice at this point since 2008. So have the Texans until Deshaun Watson... The Jaguars are the accurate depiction of what you do when you reach for a QB prospect over superior talent (Blaine Gabbert over J.J Watt, Blake Bortles over Khalil mack etc.) There's no exact code for building a franchise from the ground up, having a QB helps but if you have an awful team around your QB, no matter how good they could potentially be won't make up for the fact your team sucks.  

Like seriously look at Jared Goff, the rams drafted a QB and he was god awful with a horrible supporting cast, awful blocking, awful coaching. They actually managed to surround him with a decent o-line, good coaching, decent WRs. If they never fired Jeff Fisher, Goff would've busted. 

21 minutes ago, tab said:

im only putting the names that are on the graphic in the OP

 

Just saying though, it's not like the Browns traded Wentz for a dozen picks, they passed on him and by that logic, we should probably include the other players they passed on too to end up with the guys they got

No we should count the players the browns drafted with the picks and the picks they got for trading down with those picks. If we start adding every single player the browns passed on in Certain spots, it never ends and it gets entirely one sided for the eagles when they only managed to get Carson Wentz and a late rounder out of the browns. Count the Sam Bradford trade if you want, but other than that nothing else matters to the trade.

[BAConrad]

11 hours ago, Thomas5737 said:

You also said you had a crap offensive line. So besides the worst WR, a crap offensive line and no run game...you were pretty good offensively? You also claimed the worst corners in the league. Sounds like a pretty bad team to me. Certainly well below average if you have the worst receivers and corners in the league with a crap run game and a bad offensive line. I'm just trying to see the picture you are painting and I can't figure it out. Minus QB you are/were bottom 5 roster?

My god you're dense.

 

 

We were a 7 win team. Our offense wasn't that good. Wentz was forced to do way too much. Now we're starting to see more balance, and our OL being healthy a long with the addition of some depth and then changes at WR....this is an entirely different team.

 

 

And how can you be this dense? Honestly? What are you trying to even claim that I said?I simply said our WRs were terrible (top 3 in drops),the OL without Lane for 10 games wasn't good, we had one of the worst run games. And yeah, our corners were freaking bad. We managed to win 7 games because :

 

A. Lane still played in 6 games. We were 4-2 or 5-1 IIRC in those games. Carson's stats were WAY better in those games

 

B. We had two All Pro safeties with Jenkins and McLeod

C. An elite front 7 and very good ST unit.

 

Things you fail to mention in your post . You're isolating those certain positions and neglecting to look at why we won 7 games, not why we lost 9. 

 

But keep making idiotic straw man arguments. Whatever helps Browns fans sleep at night. 

[Thomas5737]

3 hours ago, BAConrad said:

My god you're dense.

Your god is dense? I'd get a new god if I were you. Unless you meant I was your god and i'm dense, well... still I'd get a new one.

A long would be one word, along.

So with an elite front 7, a very good ST unit, two all pros at safety to cover up weak CB play and a good offensive line with Lane in there I guess that is a lot better situation than Wentz would have had in Cleveland last year and gave him a better chance to win/succeed, which is what I was replying to when you countered with what a terrible situation Wentz was in to win and seemingly were claiming that he wouldn't have had a worse situation in Cleveland.

I think we are on the same page now. The Eagles had weaknesses but nothing like what the Browns had last year and Wentz wouldn't have fared as well in Cleveland.

[Onizuka]

19 hours ago, Iamcanadian said:

If you follow the logic of the Browns passing on Wentz because the team stinks, then Indy would have passed on Peyton and Luck, Tennessee would have passed on Mariota, Tampa Bay would have passed on Winston, The Giants would have passed on Eli, Atlanta would have passed on Ryan, Carolina would have passed on Newton, Detroit would have passed on Stafford, the Rams would have passed on Goff and on and on and on. These teams stunk, which is why they got the opportunity to draft a franchise QB with a high pick.

I repeat, only Miami in recent memory has passed on a potential franchise QB, when they decided to pass on Ryan and how has that turned out for them??? Cleveland's Owner/FO is playing a very dangerous game, suggesting to me, that they simply do not have a clue on how to rebuild a franchise and we could still be have this conversation about the Browns in 2027 or later.

So what was the logic of teams that passed on Brady or Rodgers? or most recently, Prescott? Carr? Wilson? Cousins? 

I'm just baffled with some of the comments in here acting like they know more than FOs of the NFL. Is it really inconceivable to think that those QBs were passed on because their FO did not believe they were worth the 1st round pick and had another player rated higher at the time? I honestly did not know much about Wentz until his pro day and senior bowl when his hype began to pick up.

Any one watching the Browns can see that Kizer very well could be the QB for the Browns (time and coaching will tell, but, he can make all the throws and has shown flashes vs some strong defenses); unfortunately our receivers are allergic to the ball and our offense, IMO, is not rookie friendly as Hue wants it to be a vertical offense with our garbage receiving corps (our best receiver is our #2 RB who should be our #1 RB), but, does not utilize our 2 big athletic TEs who have been more reliable than $9 million dollar man Kenny "bounce off stone hands into an INT" Britt.

I'm starting to think you need a new team; most fans are at least somewhat optimistic about their bad teams, you seem to really hate the Browns as I've yet to see a positive post from you, including in the Browns forums.

[jrry32]

3 hours ago, Onizuka said:

I'm just baffled with some of the comments in here acting like they know more than FOs of the NFL.

Hard to demand that a Browns fan have faith in his FO knowing what it's doing. As a Rams fan, I feel quite confident that I knew more and was more capable than the guys leading our FO from the early 2000s until the time Les Snead arrived. I have a feeling some of the very smart Browns fans could have done a better job than their FO over the past decade plus.

[jrry32]

23 hours ago, OleXmad said:

Like seriously look at Jared Goff, the rams drafted a QB and he was god awful with a horrible supporting cast, awful blocking, awful coaching. They actually managed to surround him with a decent o-line, good coaching, decent WRs. If they never fired Jeff Fisher, Goff would've busted.

Doesn't that support his argument? The Rams picked Goff before having the pieces. They got him the pieces, and now he's thriving. Obviously, things could have gone differently if they had never gotten rid of Fisher, but that's not really a talent acquisition issue. You don't really solve your problems by passing on a QB you think could be a franchise guy because you have a bad HC. 

[Iamcanadian]

4 hours ago, Onizuka said:

So what was the logic of teams that passed on Brady or Rodgers? or most recently, Prescott? Carr? Wilson? Cousins? 

Quote

Like I said repeatedly, teams that think they can get a franchise QB in late round 1/round 2 have about a 6% chance at success if you examine the last decade of drafting. The figure isn't zero, so there are always exceptions, it just isn't the odds I want to use to rebuild my franchise. As a Browns fan, have you already forgotten how many of these types we have tried to succeed with, but were total failures.

I'm just baffled with some of the comments in here acting like they know more than FOs of the NFL. Is it really inconceivable to think that those QBs were passed on because their FO did not believe they were worth the 1st round pick and had another player rated higher at the time? I honestly did not know much about Wentz until his pro day and senior bowl when his hype began to pick up.

Quote

 

Well, let's look at the Brown's FO over the last decade. Are we a consistent winner during that period or have we stunk up the joint. Most NFL teams have decent FO's, but given how long we have been trying to rebuild this franchise, I think any casual observer would agree, that the Brown's FO's have not been among them.

 

Any one watching the Browns can see that Kizer very well could be the QB for the Browns (time and coaching will tell, but, he can make all the throws and has shown flashes vs some strong defenses); unfortunately our receivers are allergic to the ball and our offense, IMO, is not rookie friendly as Hue wants it to be a vertical offense with our garbage receiving corps (our best receiver is our #2 RB who should be our #1 RB), but, does not utilize our 2 big athletic TEs who have been more reliable than $9 million dollar man Kenny "bounce off stone hands into an INT" Britt.

Quote

I have seen nothing from Kizer that indicates he has the talent and intangibles to be a franchise QB. He could not win at Notre Dame when they had real talent, so on what basis do you think he can win here even with talent. He is a career backup QB, sometimes for a game or 2, a backup QB can show flashes, but over the course of a season, they cannot get the job done and that is why they remain backups.

I'm starting to think you need a new team; most fans are at least somewhat optimistic about their bad teams, you seem to really hate the Browns as I've yet to see a positive post from you, including in the Browns forums.

Quote

Look, I have been a Brown's fan for 65 years through thick and thin, but I have also been around long enough to smell a rotten organization that has no direction and no ability to succeed and after a decade of watching Brown's Owners and FO's accomplish nothing and I mean nothing, I am sick of it. It is hard to remain positive when after watching so many franchises rebuild in my 65 years of watching football, I see the Browns FO following a pattern that no other successful franchise has used to rebuild. I repeat, no other successful franchise has tried to rebuild the way the Browns are trying to do it and it really bothers me.

You want to see Kizer and our FO through rose coloured glasses, go ahead, but I am telling you, you are in for a long, long wait if you are looking for the Browns to become a contender. Now, if the Browns use their #1 overall pick, yes, they are going to be the worst team in pro football 2 years running, on a franchise QB like Rosen or Darnold, use their other high picks on a couple of WR's and a decent RB, then the franchise could actually see a real turn around within 3 years, but if they wait to see just what they have in Kizer and miss an opportunity to draft a solid franchise QB in the 2018 draft, then you could be waiting a couple of decades before you ever see the Browns competitive again and I wonder how positive you will be then.

I do not hate the Browns, I hate an owner who shows no signs of being able to hire a decent FO to run his football team and as long as they remain incompetent, the Browns will remain the same.

 

 

[Soko]

Yeah, I’m not really buying the the idea that the Browns are fine/better off for not picking a franchise QB, just because the team was bad. As a struggling franchise, you may only get a chance or two to get a guy that can really stabilize the quarterback position of your franchise. Browns aside, we’ve seen some teams go a long time without finding one. You don’t pass on one because he won’t be entering a totally ideal situation. 

Passing on Watson I understand because, IMO, it wasn’t great value for him there. He’s outplaying my expectations so far, I didn’t see him as a great QB going down the road - especially not early. But Wentz was a pretty solid prospect that really any one would’ve taken #2, so passing on him because the team might not be good enough just doesn’t fly with me.

[Iamcanadian]

7 hours ago, Yin-Yang said:

Yeah, I’m not really buying the the idea that the Browns are fine/better off for not picking a franchise QB, just because the team was bad. As a struggling franchise, you may only get a chance or two to get a guy that can really stabilize the quarterback position of your franchise. Browns aside, we’ve seen some teams go a long time without finding one. You don’t pass on one because he won’t be entering a totally ideal situation. 

Passing on Watson I understand because, IMO, it wasn’t great value for him there. He’s outplaying my expectations so far, I didn’t see him as a great QB going down the road - especially not early. But Wentz was a pretty solid prospect that really any one would’ve taken #2, so passing on him because the team might not be good enough just doesn’t fly with me.

I agree 100%, the is the 'Golden Rule' of drafting.