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15 hours ago, G said:

No, I don't agree... Gruden got rid of a proven Oline coach (Tice) for Cable. TOTALLY DESTROYED what was already in place. Drafted athletic ZBS tackles but has everyone bulk up now realizing ZBS wasn't a good fit with our talent. Cook, Cooper even Nelson had a game showing he had something when made the focus but the Oline failure made it all go down. Carr looked like a chicken with his head cut off a lot behind that mess. Lynch looked good enough until we were losing bad and then he gets hurt. Richard was one of the few who didn't look like he gave up. That's more talent on offense than 1/3rd of the NFL

Defense with Mack would have made everyone better. Irvin checked out early. Aging vets got reps over the younger guys early but did better once switching it the other way around. 

The funny thing about all of this is I said we should trade Mack MONTHS before we actually did. Everybody thought I was joking but it's all in the posts. I knew the contract would limit overall team talent depth. I'm just PISSED how it was handled and I was one of the guys who wanted Gruden back UNTIL I saw a 10 year contract. I KNEW that was a mistake instantly.

We start winning I'll be MORE THAN HAPPY to get some wing sauce for that crow, but I'm past blind faith, loyalty (after decades already)and they need to EARN it back with good moves. I'm seeing meh moves. Looked like a full rebuild but AB, Trent means the opposite. The draft was solid players with character but then Burfict and Iggycog says we want nasty for temp attitude.

Mack didn't talk much but was one of the hardest workers and absolutely ZERO character concerns when moving to SIN CITY. I go there a LOT and everything in excess and easily available is too tempting for some guy. Glad OBJ isn't on the team or we'd get weekly tweets/snaps of all the excess that can be bought with all that money.

It all comes down to Mark Davis. He stayed out of it til Gruden and now Gruden has too much juice to feed that EGO...

PS I expect a recession so just think I'm all doom and gloom but I say expect the best and prepare for the worst. I expect 6-10 but could see 4-12 not be shocking.

That bolded quote is downright laughable.  Nelson was washed up and retired after the season bc he had zero left in the tank.  He should have called it quits before last season and he ended up being our number 1 for most of the year.  Cooper was endorsed by no one on the team, Carr had no confidence in him, Gruden and the GM clearly didn't as he has been super inconstant throughout his career.  They shipped him off for a 1st rounder which was the right move.  He plays soft and has questionable hands at best.

Lynch was a one dimensional plotter who instilled fear in no one.  He was good for 3 or 4 yards per carry but other than that he was worthless.  Slow, couldn't catch etc.  Flat out washed up bum.

Our Oline was in the bottom 3 in the NFL, what more needs to be said about that...

Now for our D.  Worst Dline in the NFL with zero pass rush.  Downright laughable.  LB's bottom of the NFL and were also a joke.  DB's looked atrocious all year but to be fair it's not easy running around with NFL Wr's for 8 seconds bc the QB can stand there all day long with no pressure.  Reggie Nelson started most of the season and is now retired.  

This may have been one of the most embarrassing rosters fielded by the silver and black ever and you want to defend how talent wasn't the issue SMH.  

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33 minutes ago, Frankie2Gunz said:

That bolded quote is downright laughable. 

I forgot to add your boy Bryant. You know the guy you're going to give props to if Cooper had 'any' success. LOL Dallas seemed to have success with him and their scrubs...It's amazing what a WELL COACHED oline can do.

Our Oline had 4 pro bowlers even if in decline. Miller gets LT because he's Gruden's 'guy' and Penn goes to an uncomfortable RT and gets hurt. Gee I wonder why. COACHING STUPIDITY!!!

NOTHING NOTHING explains the drop off with our oline than coaching/system/scheme not 'talent' once that fall apart the rest of the offense falls apart.

Hudson still here and a year older so possible dropoff but probably not

Jackson still at RG where he hasn't been as good as he was at LG

Brown (highest paid Olinemen EVER) and an improvement at RT over what we've had there in many MANY years. System/scheme/coaching might get him cut after two seasons being Cable has shown the ability to take pro bowlers and make them suck. A solid RT probably will get better though right?!?

Pats offensive 'talent' is Brady and any little white dude at WR. Oline isn't talented but well COACHED. Gronk was the real deal but not last season. Cook looked better last season than Gronk but 'rep' always helps. So our talent was better than the Super Bowl champs...It's just Brady and BB are magical. We can only hope Carr and Gruden will be talked about that in the future but as of now COACHING and EGO are the Raiders limitations until further notice.

I was going to say more talent than 1/4 on O but when thinking about it there were a lot of teams we had more talent than. Talent is NOT the problem it's LEADERSHIP our coaching and the EGO of Gruden. It's like he gets 'locked' into a belief and can't see the forest through the trees. I can see your 'view' and I just disagree... And know I'm right. Because I'm a know it all. :D You are one too it's why it's fun to disagree. xD

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4 hours ago, G said:

I forgot to add your boy Bryant. You know the guy you're going to give props to if Cooper had 'any' success. LOL Dallas seemed to have success with him and their scrubs...It's amazing what a WELL COACHED oline can do.

Our Oline had 4 pro bowlers even if in decline. Miller gets LT because he's Gruden's 'guy' and Penn goes to an uncomfortable RT and gets hurt. Gee I wonder why. COACHING STUPIDITY!!!

NOTHING NOTHING explains the drop off with our oline than coaching/system/scheme not 'talent' once that fall apart the rest of the offense falls apart.

Hudson still here and a year older so possible dropoff but probably not

Jackson still at RG where he hasn't been as good as he was at LG

Brown (highest paid Olinemen EVER) and an improvement at RT over what we've had there in many MANY years. System/scheme/coaching might get him cut after two seasons being Cable has shown the ability to take pro bowlers and make them suck. A solid RT probably will get better though right?!?

Pats offensive 'talent' is Brady and any little white dude at WR. Oline isn't talented but well COACHED. Gronk was the real deal but not last season. Cook looked better last season than Gronk but 'rep' always helps. So our talent was better than the Super Bowl champs...It's just Brady and BB are magical. We can only hope Carr and Gruden will be talked about that in the future but as of now COACHING and EGO are the Raiders limitations until further notice.

I was going to say more talent than 1/4 on O but when thinking about it there were a lot of teams we had more talent than. Talent is NOT the problem it's LEADERSHIP our coaching and the EGO of Gruden. It's like he gets 'locked' into a belief and can't see the forest through the trees. I can see your 'view' and I just disagree... And know I'm right. Because I'm a know it all. :D You are one too it's why it's fun to disagree. xD

Last time I checked there is much more to a football team than Oline play but if you choose that to try to prove your ridiculous stance keep trying LOL. 

Was their alleged talent along the line last year, sure but they were ranked amongst the worst in the league for a reason.  Now comes your lame excuses, it was coaching, it was Cable, it was scheme etc but has nothing to do with personnel. 

Do you think having Penn, who had been a pro bowl LT for the last few season regress, which was the major factor in the poor Oline play?  I certainly do.  Losing a Pro Bowl LT and replacing him with a rookie who was flat out abused was a major factor in the regression.  Penn should have retired before the season as his career was clearly over, he was foolishly playing injured and was replaced towards the end of the season with Parker (who made 12 starts last year), another rookie who should never have been on the field.  Losing a pro bowl LT and replacing him with a rookie who couldn't stand up to the physicality and grind as and NFL rookie has more to do with poor line play than the excuses you're using to pump your narrative.  Just as bad if not worse than Miller was having a 3rd round, raw rookie facing off against the likes of Bosa and V.Miller.  To think that starting 2 rookie, raw bookends in the AFC West and not have that contribute to a bottom 3 Oline grade for the year is downright laughable.

Cooper is inconstant and soft who has big games and the disappears for weeks on end.   Let's see in 5 years who made the right move, Gruden trading Cooper for a 1st or Dallas giving up a 1st for Cooper and then promptly paying him approximately 17 a year.  17 a year for Cooper is downright laughable.  As for the rest of the O, washed up Lynch who no one fears, Martin who is clearly old and not feared by anyone, Nelson washed up old hack, Atman.... yeah.  Cook played well last year but that was only because Carr had no one else to throw the ball too.  Cook can be replaced and it was a wise move to let him walk.  

All your yapping about NE has nothing to do with the Raiders but let me ask you a question.  If we had replaced Carr with Brady last season how many wins would we have had and what would Bradys stats looked like?  Do you think we would have made a SB run with Brady? 

The fact that you think last years Raider team had more talent than NE on O clearly shows you lack of football knowledge but this conversation is somewhat amusing so I'll keep it going.  

Edited by Frankie2Gunz
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2 hours ago, Frankie2Gunz said:

Last time I checked there is much more to a football team than Oline play but if you choose that to try to prove your ridiculous stance keep trying LOL. 

Was their alleged talent along the line last year, sure but they were ranked amongst the worst in the league for a reason.  Now comes your lame excuses, it was coaching, it was Cable, it was scheme etc. 

You say nothing is to blame for the Oline drop-off except  all of the excuses you mentioned above.  What about having Penn, who had been a pro bowl LT for the last few season regress, which was the major factor in the poor Oline play.  Losing a Pro Bowl LT and replacing him with a rookie who was flat out abused was a major factor in the regression.  Penn should have retired before the season as his career was clearly over, he was foolishly playing injured and was replaced towards the end of the season with Parker (who made 12 starts last year), another rookie who should never have been on the field.  Losing a pro bowl LT and replacing him with a rookie who couldn't stand up to the physicality and grind as and NFL rookie has more to do with poor line play than the excuses you're using to pump your narrative.  

Cooper is inconstant and soft who has big games and the disappears for weeks on end.   Let's see in 5 years who made the right move, Gruden trading Cooper for a 1st or Dallas giving up a 1st for Cooper and then promptly paying him approximately 17 a year.  17 a year for Cooper is downright laughable.  As for the rest of the O, washed up Lynch who no one fears, Martin who is clearly old and not feared by anyone, Nelson washed up old hack, Atman.... yeah.  Cook played well last year but that was only because Carr had no one else to throw the ball too.  Cook can be replaced and it was a wise move to let him walk.  

All your yapping about NE has nothing to do with the Raiders but let me ask you a question.  If we had replaced Carr with Brady last season how many wins would we have had and what would Bradys stats looked like?  Do you think we would have made a SB run with Brady? 

The fact that you think last years Raider team had more talent than NE on O clearly shows you lack of football knowledge but this conversation is somewhat amusing so I'll keep it going.  

How many pro bowls did Penn have without Carr and his quick release? I didn't want the extension and wanted to trade up for Tunsil in the draft back then. He held out once we cut the RT  Howard and RM caved in and extended. You're right that neither rookie should have been on the field. Gruden's call and after that call maybe, just maybe Miller should have been the RT with Penn coming back from injury and never playing RT. Gotta be pretty stupid to make decisions like that, but they know what they are doing...It showed last season...for ALL TO SEE.9_9

Trading Cooper 'at that point' was SMART. I'll give credit for getting good value for a guy who wasn't on the same page with Carr and especially when the season was LOST. Funny thing is the conversation wasn't about Coop but you're so easy to bait on him because White turned out so much better. Oh wait?!? xD I'm sure in Silver and Black he would have done much better because it's all about upside and not a solid producer. Wait what did we draft with our top picks this season...Oh solid, not upside. Those were different coaches but it's still fun.

NE talent SUCKS and never had much it's all been Brady and his mastery of the system. Brady would have won less games because the hits Carr took would have snapped Brady. Irvin would have snapped and punched him out the first time Brady yelled at him to play harder.

Agree letting Cook walk was smart. Old and was injury prone before his stint with us. Glad he walked but d's comments are understandable. However other weapons make TE less a need but as 'd' said injury to one of them and we're in bad shape.

Our 'talent' last year basically gave up because they felt BETRAYED by leadership with the handling of Mack. So once the losing got too far they all quit in droves. They get paid either way, just like Gruden so writing was on the wall and they showed how bad it could get. We had a guy retire during season. Bills had that too and why would vets who want to win stick with a loser. Hence why NE has so many vets trying to get rings with them, but many of those guys don't 'fit' and quit before they ruin the image/rep/BRAND!!! Because few love the game as much as they love themselves which is human nature so understandable especially with social media.

We should start a 'Wine and Cheese' t topic so my whinning and being cheesy doesn't derail and annoy the other posters. :D

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13 hours ago, NYRaider said:

What impact did he make? They lost in the Wild Card game at home to a backup QB and Mack was non-existent during the contest. They already had to restructure his deal and lost some talent on their defense because of cap issues. 

That backup just won a Super Bowl and almost beat the saints the next week. Mack was a dominant defender in an elite defense that had more INTs than TDs allowed. They also lost to the egales by a missed chip shot by an incompetent kicker. Like i said in my op he has already an impact, there are always busts in the nfl. 

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14 hours ago, NYRaider said:

What impact did he make? They lost in the Wild Card game at home to a backup QB and Mack was non-existent during the contest. They already had to restructure his deal and lost some talent on their defense because of cap issues. 

A game they clearly should have won. His impact was clear, they made the playoffs for the first time since 2010, behind a defense Mack put over the top.

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10 hours ago, Chali21 said:

That backup just won a Super Bowl and almost beat the saints the next week. Mack was a dominant defender in an elite defense that had more INTs than TDs allowed. They also lost to the egales by a missed chip shot by an incompetent kicker. Like i said in my op he has already an impact, there are always busts in the nfl. 

 

9 hours ago, raidr4life said:

A game they clearly should have won. His impact was clear, they made the playoffs for the first time since 2010, behind a defense Mack put over the top.

If the Bears never win a superbowl and the Raiders somehow do, then we essentially won the trade.  Simply put, if Mack never takes them to the SB, then all they ever were was a really good defense.  Nobody remembers the playoff teams, only the SB champs, and sometimes those elite losers like the almost undefeated Patriots.  Gruden's goal is to win it all, and the path he took is stacking picks for young affordable talent, instead of paying two players about 45 million combined.  Both the Cowboys and Bears are now in salary cap hell.  The only reason they were crazy enough to take those two was because they have QBs on rookie contracts.  Trying to keep Mack and having to pay Trubisky is going to be painful, same with Cooper and Dak.  I believe we made the right choice by trading those two away.

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15 hours ago, Chali21 said:

That backup just won a Super Bowl and almost beat the saints the next week. Mack was a dominant defender in an elite defense that had more INTs than TDs allowed. They also lost to the egales by a missed chip shot by an incompetent kicker. Like i said in my op he has already an impact, there are always busts in the nfl. 

 Chicago’s playoff run had more to do with Green Bay and Minnesota not playing well.

 Do you really think Chicago is going to division this year ?

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5 hours ago, Jerry said:

 

If the Bears never win a superbowl and the Raiders somehow do, then we essentially won the trade.  Simply put, if Mack never takes them to the SB, then all they ever were was a really good defense.  Nobody remembers the playoff teams, only the SB champs, and sometimes those elite losers like the almost undefeated Patriots.  Gruden's goal is to win it all, and the path he took is stacking picks for young affordable talent, instead of paying two players about 45 million combined.  Both the Cowboys and Bears are now in salary cap hell.  The only reason they were crazy enough to take those two was because they have QBs on rookie contracts.  Trying to keep Mack and having to pay Trubisky is going to be painful, same with Cooper and Dak.  I believe we made the right choice by trading those two away.

If the Raiders dont make the playoffs in the next 3 years and so on and so on. Nobody is arguing if it was the right move for us, but people acting like Mack didnt do anything for the Bears now is asinine, most people had the Bears winning 5 games.

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1 hour ago, raidr4life said:

If the Raiders dont make the playoffs in the next 3 years and so on and so on. Nobody is arguing if it was the right move for us, but people acting like Mack didnt do anything for the Bears now is asinine, most people had the Bears winning 5 games.

I credit that more to Nagy than Mack, but they both improved their respective sides of the ball.

Nagy's impact on their offense was the reason they were able to win some of those close games that the defense was keeping them in. However, I don't see them becoming any better than they were last year.

Mack is a tremendous player, but he doesn't win you ball games.  We know that from his time here. He may be the best piece of the defensive puzzle, but that's it. And no, closing a game out for a win is not the same thing.  If the defense was any good, that would not be needed when the offense is putting up 30+.

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2 hours ago, true2form said:

I credit that more to Nagy than Mack, but they both improved their respective sides of the ball.

Nagy's impact on their offense was the reason they were able to win some of those close games that the defense was keeping them in. However, I don't see them becoming any better than they were last year.

Mack is a tremendous player, but he doesn't win you ball games.  We know that from his time here. He may be the best piece of the defensive puzzle, but that's it. And no, closing a game out for a win is not the same thing.  If the defense was any good, that would not be needed when the offense is putting up 30+.

Yeah that 21st rank total offense was a killer.

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6 hours ago, raidr4life said:

If the Raiders dont make the playoffs in the next 3 years and so on and so on. Nobody is arguing if it was the right move for us, but people acting like Mack didnt do anything for the Bears now is asinine, most people had the Bears winning 5 games.

That was not all Mack. The offense improved as well. Other players on defense played much better.  Mack didn't turn the rest of our defense into a top 10 unit, Chicago already had a very solid defense, ranked at number 10 in 2017. They went from 10th to 3rd. That can be attributed to more than just Mack. Consistent scheme, development, luck. Lots of things. I wouldn't be surprised if they dropped drastically due to losing their D. Coordinator. We'll see, but I expect them to only get worse as the years go on.

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2 minutes ago, Jerry said:

That was not all Mack. The offense improved as well. Other players on defense played much better.  Mack didn't turn the rest of our defense into a top 10 unit, Chicago already had a very solid defense, ranked at number 10 in 2017. They went from 10th to 3rd. That can be attributed to more than just Mack. Consistent scheme, development, luck. Lots of things. I wouldn't be surprised if they dropped drastically due to losing their D. Coordinator. We'll see, but I expect them to only get worse as the years go on.

They went from 10th to 3rd by adding arguably the best pass rusher in the league. Look Mack can't do it all on his own but his presence clearly boosted that defense even more. It's like saying when the Bronco's had the Number 1 defense in the league they'd still be number 1 without Von Miller, because of consistent scheme, development, luck, lots of things. Without Von Miller that defense would have fell somewhere between 8th and 12th still solid, but great pass rushers make a difference. Pagano's work on the defensive side of the ball is nothing to sneeze at either.

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