***Spoiler Thread*** Avengers: Endgame

[theJ]

3 minutes ago, Xenos said:

Makes me wonder how easy it is to remove the stone in the first place. Maybe Hulk and Marvel can. But if you lose a stone, it kind of messes everything up anyways.

Why would they steal a single stone anyway?  They still had one, and presumably knew Vision still had his.  Their plan was to stop Thanos by taking the one thing that allowed him to collect stones.  To take the stones themselves is only half of what they needed to do.

[Calvert28]

2 minutes ago, fretgod99 said:

Stark had literally never seen the Gauntlet before, let alone interacted with it or understood how it worked. Why would that be the backup plan? If you can’t remove the glove by overpowering him, why you you remove a stone the same way? Stark stealing the stones in EG is the last gasp of a desperate man. It’s literally the only play he has left.

Well he was able to design one 5 years after that just by looking at it and not studying it.

Tony is known to have back up plan after back up plan for situations to assume that the Gauntlet can be removed and not the stones just seems out of character for him for something that now just seems so obvious not to at least try. You had 2 people standing around doing nothing.

I agree with you when he did it, it was the last act of desperation but for Tony it seems like those 2 options should have been his first two thoughts. It is Tony after all.

[Calvert28]

1 minute ago, theJ said:

Why would they steal a single stone anyway?  They still had one, and presumably knew Vision still had his.  Their plan was to stop Thanos by taking the one thing that allowed him to collect stones.  To take the stones themselves is only half of what they needed to do.

And if they couldn't stop Thanos, why not slow him down by going after the the space stone. If it were successful they could have sent Tony or a few of them back to Earth to come up with a better plan.

[theJ]

If we want to pick on plot holes, the bigger IW plot hole is that they didn't just cut off Thanos' arm with a Doctor Strange portal while they were trying to pry off the glove.

[theJ]

2 minutes ago, Calvert28 said:

And if they couldn't stop Thanos, why not slow him down by going after the the space stone. If it were successful they could have sent Tony or a few of them back to Earth to come up with a better plan.

Did they even know which stones Thanos had?  Banner had been sent back to Earth right after Thanos got the Tesseract, by my memory.  But he was basically unconscious.  So all they knew was that he had the Power stone.

[Calvert28]

14 minutes ago, The LBC said:

It might have been in there and been tossed out when it was taking everybody in their number to wrest the damn gauntlet free in the first place (they found out pretty quickly they didn't have the luxury of sparing someone to try and remove a stone).  Or it didn't occur to them at the time (but in the act of failing it prompted the thought in Tony's head to have that Emergency Plan B in place when creating Gauntlet 2.0).  Just because it wasn't outright shown in exposition in IW, thereby spoiling a likely-planned element towards the climax and resolution of the sequel, doesn't mean it didn't exist.  That's like ultra-caliber nitpicking there.

You sure? Because im pretty sure I remember Nebula and Quill effing up the plan for everyone by standing around talking and then Quill bashing him in the face causing Mantis to lose her control.

Also how do you know this was the emergency plan? Cause Thanos just up and took out a stone to blast CM away so it's not like Tony was the only one who knew about that little ultimate secret Plan B for 2.0. If anything, Tony got the idea right after he saw Thanos do it to CM. My question is since Tony is arguably the most brilliant person in the MCU why that wouldn't have been some of his first ideas.

It's not nitpicking it's literally what won them the entire War, so how did it just occur to the ever brilliant Tony Stark just now, cause the excuse "he just didn't think of it at the time" could apply to any other character. Not Tony.

[Calvert28]

6 minutes ago, theJ said:

If we want to pick on plot holes, the bigger IW plot hole is that they didn't just cut off Thanos' arm with a Doctor Strange portal while they were trying to pry off the glove.

See that's another one that was never talked about.

[Calvert28]

14 minutes ago, theJ said:

In IW they didn't have a glove to steal it with.  You noticed in IW how every time Thanos gets a stone, it kind of binds or seals to the glove?  They couldn't have removed a stone without a strong mechanism to do so.

In Endgame, Tony had a way because the glove was his tech.

Also, they probably didn't think about it.  It all happened really fast.

They had time to plan for it. Saw 14 Million different futures and it doesn't matter if it was Tony's tech if Thanos did it first.

When did it bind or seal to the glove? It was no different then the effect they had on the Stark Glove. It seemed to operate in the exact same function that the original did.

The fact that Thanos used the gauntlet in the same way LBC suggested meant that there was no special tech for that one purpose.

[Calvert28]

19 minutes ago, theJ said:

Did they even know which stones Thanos had?  Banner had been sent back to Earth right after Thanos got the Tesseract, by my memory.  But he was basically unconscious.  So all they knew was that he had the Power stone.

Yea they knew. The had the Guardians with them who already knew he got the power, reality, and the space stone

[fretgod99]

You’re acting like Stark’s plan was always to just steal the stones. It wasn’t. They didn’t even expect ‘14 Thanos to appear after they reversed the first snap. Absolutely ever single bit of that was working on the fly. Again, it was the last gasp of a desperate man who had nothing else to try. He was out of options. Every big hitter they had got knocked aside. He had already been beaten by Thanos, probably permanently weakened, and knew he couldn’t beat him one on one again.

So why didn’t he think of it the first go around? Because none of the things that would have triggered that idea had happened yet. And yes, after having interacted with the Infinity Gauntlet up close and personal, Stark was then able to design a stand-in. Why is that an argument for him not understanding how it worked the first time he encountered Thanos?

[fretgod99]

7 minutes ago, Calvert28 said:

They had time to plan for it. Saw 14 Million different futures and it doesn't matter if it was Tony's tech if Thanos did it first.

When did it bind or seal to the glove? It was no different then the effect they had on the Stark Glove. It seemed to operate in the exact same function that the original did.

The fact that Thanos used the gauntlet in the same way LBC suggested meant that there was no special tech for that one purpose.

And they would know that ... how? Strange saw 14+ million possibilities; he wasn’t there to help design the glove. Stark didn’t know how the glove worked. He didn’t know how the stones interacted with it. He didn’t know what the stones would actually do.

This is a weird hill to die on. It’s not even a hill. It’s a slightly raised patch of dirt.

[Dr LBC]

12 minutes ago, Calvert28 said:

You sure? Because im pretty sure I remember Nebula and Quill effing up the plan for everyone by standing around talking and then Quill bashing him in the face causing Mantis to lose her control.

Also how do you know this was the emergency plan? Cause Thanos just up and took out a stone to blast CM away so it's not like Tony was the only one who knew about that little ultimate secret Plan B for 2.0. If anything, Tony got the idea right after he saw Thanos do it to CM. My question is since Tony is arguably the most brilliant person in the MCU why that wouldn't have been some of his first ideas.

It's not nitpicking it's literally what won them the entire War, so how did it just occur to the ever brilliant Tony Stark just now, cause the excuse "he just didn't think of it at the time" could apply to any other character. Not Tony.

And that's why it was the 1 in millions of possible outcomes in which they could actually win.

Tony's brilliance is in seeing a problem and identifying a solution.  He's a scientist at heart - scientists learn from trial and error.

I'm fairly confident this was the emergency plan because it was the one plan that required, in order for it to come to fruition, Tony to do the one thing Cap called him out as not being the type to do back in the first Avengers film when he told him, "You're not the type to make the sacrifice play."  it's why Strange told him, "If I told you this was the one outcome, it might not come to pass."  Tony's utter desperation in the moment, prompting him to sacrifice his life to trigger the checkmate (just as he did/thought he was doing when he carried the missile into the wormhole in Avengers), was necessary.  If he knew he was going to have to sacrifice his life in order to best Thanos, he might well have been willing to do it, but he might not have done it in the same moment - which, again, was necessary to achieve that one outcome.  Building in the technology to steal the stones via nano-transfer was the likely back-up plan; that he'd have to use that plan as a final act of desperation in order to then actually use the stones and end up sacrificing his life wouldn't have necessarily needed to be part of said plan.

The Russos have been extraordinarily good at tying in dialogue from past films in the three phases to actually have greater or recurring meaning later on, and particular in this last installment.

[Calvert28]

2 minutes ago, fretgod99 said:

You’re acting like Stark’s plan was always to just steal the stones. It wasn’t. They didn’t even expect ‘14 Thanos to appear after they reversed the first snap. Absolutely ever single bit of that was working on the fly. Again, it was the last gasp of a desperate man who had nothing else to try. He was out of options. Every big hitter they had got knocked aside. He had already been beaten by Thanos, probably permanently weakened, and knew he couldn’t beat him one on one again.

No I am not. But it seemed like a plan B for the possible situation that Plan A didn't work and it didn't. The fact they had plan A and only plan A to go on doesn't seem like Tony. Also comparing time travel to this is not a good comparison. One deals with science even Tony Stark first deemed impossible to do, the second goes like "well if the gauntlet could come off, why not the stones too?". You brought the point that Tony had no way of knowing if the stones could even come off, well what knowledge did he have that the gauntlet could even come off at the time?

2 minutes ago, fretgod99 said:

So why didn’t he think of it the first go around? Because none of the things that would have triggered that idea had happened yet. And yes, after having interacted with the Infinity Gauntlet up close and personal, Stark was then able to design a stand-in. Why is that an argument for him not understanding how it worked the first time he encountered Thanos?

Again this is where my argument of backup plans comes in. Tony is always working on them and his mind thinks much faster then most people. He only had that one plan and it actually wasn't even his to begin with. It didn't even occur to him to suggest that?

As for your second part, what info did he have at his disposal to even suggest the gauntlet itself could come off? Kinda like the old argument, why didn't Strange just chop his arm off.

Again it seems strange for Tony not to think of someething so simple when he obbsesses over those details as proven in every movie. For a character like Thor, it's understandable. But obsessing over these things was almost entirely what Iron Man 3 was about.

[Calvert28]

17 minutes ago, fretgod99 said:

And they would know that ... how? Strange saw 14+ million possibilities; he wasn’t there to help design the glove. Stark didn’t know how the glove worked. He didn’t know how the stones interacted with it. He didn’t know what the stones would actually do.

This is a weird hill to die on. It’s not even a hill. It’s a slightly raised patch of dirt.

But he knew enough to take the glove off when for all he knew that damn thing was krazy glued onto Thanos as his backup plan? The whole point of taking his glove off is that it seemed the simplest way winning and he knew nothing about Thanos or the glove itself. He didn't know the glove could come off and yet he told all of them to go for it, so why not the stones too?

[Calvert28]

14 minutes ago, The LBC said:

And that's why it was the 1 in millions of possible outcomes in which they could actually win.

Tony's brilliance is in seeing a problem and identifying a solution.  He's a scientist at heart - scientists learn from trial and error.

And as I said after I first saw that film and watching him Ninja the stones, that seemed like it could have happened in 14 million different ways.

14 minutes ago, The LBC said:

I'm fairly confident this was the emergency plan because it was the one plan that required, in order for it to come to fruition, Tony to do the one thing Cap called him out as not being the type to do back in the first Avengers film when he told him, "You're not the type to make the sacrifice play."  it's why Strange told him, "If I told you this was the one outcome, it might not come to pass."  Tony's utter desperation in the moment, prompting him to sacrifice his life to trigger the checkmate (just as he did/thought he was doing when he carried the missile into the wormhole in Avengers), was necessary.  If he knew he was going to have to sacrifice his life in order to best Thanos, he might well have been willing to do it, but he might not have done it in the same moment - which, again, was necessary to achieve that one outcome.  Building in the technology to steal the stones via nano-transfer was the likely back-up plan; that he'd have to use that plan as a final act of desperation in order to then actually use the stones and end up sacrificing his life wouldn't have necessarily needed to be part of said plan.

Again my problem is not with Endgame. Its why the idea never occured to Tony when it's these little details he famous for noticing and thinking of ways around them. Going back to what theJ said about Strange just cutting off his arm. Some of these things just seemed obvious to brilliant characters that likely should have had an explanation for it considering they should him cutting off the hand of one of the Blackhands at the beginning. And with this scene of Tony stealing the stones when he didn't even attempt to try it in the previous movie. And he didn't build in the tech to steal the stones when he wanted like you and Fret keep harping on. If Thanos removed a stone first then put it back in when he was done with it how is that a back-up plan?Not to mention Fret's like of that post you suggested that in contradicts his statement that it was the last act of a desperate man. Meaning he didn't even know if it would work, he was just willing to try anything.

14 minutes ago, The LBC said:

The Russos have been extraordinarily good at tying in dialogue from past films in the three phases to actually have greater or recurring meaning later on, and particular in this last installment.

They have, and I'm not saying it ruins the movie or just completely waters it down. It's just curious how they could over look something like that with a character like Tony and to that extent, Dr. Strange.